You are right ubunto. Many see the woman's veil as a form of resistance and turn it into a political issue. That's why there's all this attack on veil I guess.

They make it seem as if a veiled woman is not a woman anymore or too shy of her femininity but it's not the case.

Hi Ubuntu,

It seems to me that the question you should be asking yourself is, should an Islamic woman draw attention to herself, by her dress, when in a culture different from her own?

From what I understand, a woman should not cause herself to be the subject of attention.  That is why women are told not to wear perfume, because it could cause a man notice her.  A woman should not expose her arms, legs and hair because it would also draw attention to herself and cause a man to look at her.  Likewise, makeup would draw attention to her beauty, causing her to be noticed by strangers. 

But when a woman is in a different culture and is wearing something that is strange to that culture, such as an Islamic headscarf or burka, the very thing she wears to reduce being noticed, actually causes attention to be drawn to her.  I know where I live, if a woman wore a long dress with long sleeves and a headscarf, everyone would notice her, simply because it is unusual. 

I understand the delimma, but if I were to visit a culture different from my own, I would try my best to blend in by wearing clothing that is appropriate to the culture...I would not want to be the object of stares.  If the culture dictated that women wear a Shalwar Kameez, I would wear it. Or if it is a place where women wear Babushkas, that is what I would wear.  I would try to blend in as much as possible  and not be noticed as a stranger or outsider. 

When you are in a place where women do not cover their hair and you choose to wear an Islamic headscarf, it is equivalent to loudly proclaiming, "May I have your attention please! I am a Muslim woman and I don't want you to see my hair."  Which seems to me just the opposite of what you wish to accomplish when you wear your headscarf, or burka.

Even when you put politics aside, when you wear Islamic clothing in a non-Islamic culture, you will actually accomplish what you are trying to avoid.

Rosa

Although cultural differences should have their consequences as you say Rosa, still the issue of attention is controversial.

There's a difference between calling the attention to yourself, with all due respect, and calling attention to your beauties and charms as a woman.

Rosa_lia wrote:

We wear the hijab because it's what Allah wants of us. We were not commanded to wear it only in countries that observe hijab and to avoid it in non-hijab-wearing-countries.

It's to preserve modesty and not to conform to what people around us wear.

Hi MaisMuslimah,

You wrote: "It's to preserve modesty..."

I am all for preserving modesty!  But there must be a certain amount of compromise if you go to a different culture where that sort of dress would be considered ostentatious.

http://www.missionislam.com/family/hijab.htm

The clothing of Muslim women should not be ostentatious.

Ibn Umar reported that the Messenger of Allah (saws) said:

He who dresses for ostentation in this world, Allah will dress him in a dress of humiliation on the Day of Judgment and set it on fire.

I have mentioned before that most Muslim women in Bangladesh wear different clothing than your traditional Arabic dress.  Women there wear traditional Indian-type clothing such as salwar kameez with an orna, or a sari.  My daughter had a friend who moved to Bangladesh from an Arabic Muslim country.  Although she was still a good Muslim, she took off her hijab in Bangladesh, because modest women there do not cover their hair, or feel the need to wear long sleeves (they wear lots of jewelry, and often have their nose pierced).  But if she were to go back to an Arabic country, or to a Western country, her salwar kameez would be considered "ostentatious." 

Rosa

Hi Rosia_lia,

I'm a US citizen and I live in the US now however I was raised in an Islamic area of the country of Indonesia.

Have you yourself ever lived in an area that is prodominately Muslim? Have you ever lived in an area where the culture is prodominately different then your own? Have you ever tryed to keep your own standard in the face of people that differ from yourself? Not just in the area of dress. How about the area of what movies you let your childern watch? I know people who calm to be Christian that let their childern/teenagers watch R rated moves. Are going to let yours? How about put their 13 year old on birth control so they can have safe sex. Do let your 13 year old (or any child) have sex because some people who calm to be Christian do? 

I have seen you say that you are not trying to tell Muslim women what to wear. I see you trying to blame their religion for making them wear something that YOU think is uncomfortable.  An interesting thing that is. Please tell the truth about what your purpose is. Do you really think that what you are doing will free these women from some HORRIBLE oppression? What women wear is not what oppresses them. A veil is no more or less oppressive then high heels. It is likely that a veil is way less oppressive then the US standard of being way to thin.

Let me tell you what the most horrible oppression REALLY is. It is when one group of people think that they have the RIGHT to tell another what is modest or not. Thereby trying to neigate what others feel is God's standard.

Do you really think that it matters if some women some place on the face of the earth says that they are Muslim and do not wear some form of the veil.  IT DOESN'T MATTER.  Do you what to know why it doesn't matter? I will tell you anyhow. EVER ONE is responsible before GOD for their own actions bases on what they believe and have found  to be the true holy writings from God. 

Another thing be careful about trying to take away the rights of others because some day it might be your rights that are being taken away.

until next time Ussarn

Al salam Alikom,

I support what  Rosa say ,actually  she is not saying anything wrong , and this is what happen when u visit some other countries , wearing  hijab , or a mini skirt  will get equal attencion, if we are talking about that only ,will be the same (attencion)  only thought will be different and that doesnt conecern all people. people is so very busy nowdays working and trying to have a better life for their families.  so calm down  ,dont  confuss the discussion.

christianity has nothing to do with  it.

rosa, what you wrote here seems to be very twisted to me, twisting the beauty of hijab as something that just gets unwanted attention. im american, rosa. and no matter how i dress i get attention. EVERyBODY does. so with that being said, you think a Muslim woman should expose herself in ways she finds to be uncomfortable or even sinfull, just caus she is somehow drawing attention to herself? EVERYBODY draws attention to themselves it is NATURAL. just by existing, and going out people look at you and see you, but that doesnt mean you have to dress how they would like to see you dress, or pander to their political schemes.

rosa, you should be care full in what your saying,in that, well, if they are allowed to tell Muslim women how to dress, even making LAWS as to how Muslims can dress you think thats ok, caus ill tell you right now it is because YOU THINK THIS WILL NOT AFFECT YOU at all. but dear. do you really want that. to allow the govornment to be able to tell women what to wear or not wear? what if they say now that you can not wear bright green. or what if they say you can COVER your cleavage??? this is what you are talking as if Muslim women should do, rite? they should just expose themselves just to fit in? would you do that? would you expose your breasts if somebody told you that if you didnt do it you wouldnt fit it? if you support this atrocious act against some women, then trust me, you are also hurting yourself.

i am an american Muslim, and i will NOT show my hair. i am just like every other american. FREE to dress how I want, and especially have the religious freedom(so far) to continue to practice my religion, alhamdulillah!!!

if something is important to people, and they are not hurting others, then they should STICK by their principles.

when people look at me in my hijab, sometimes they stare, SO WHAT? they get over it real quick. do ya get what im saying here?

Hi TheREALBoris,

I am simply trying to figure out why women need to adopt an ancient Arabic custom of dress in order to please God.  Nothing more.  If a woman from a different culture than Arabic converts to Islam, you feel she must then begin to dress like Arabic women, and can no longer wear the clothing of her own culture.  It has nothing to do with whether or not these women are dressing modestly to begin with.  One poster, Sahara, called the modest dress of women in a non-Arabic culture "innovative" and said these women could not be real Muslims. 

I'm not telling YOU how to dress.  It is you and your religion that is dictating how women should dress, saying it is immodest for a woman to allow someone to see her elbow, the back of her neck or a wisp of curl. 

Rosa

Redefining our womanhood?

Redefining it by what we wear?

I  think that our womanhood is with in us, in our thoughts and  actions, we show what is important features of who we are. Without a doubt how we feel about what we wear reflects greatly on how we understand ourself to be. 

If a woman, or anyone else for that matter,  feels strongly about what they wear then they should by all means wear it. If a woman feels that a certian type of clothing is to show her love and honor for God then she should wear it. However having once taken this stand they should be willing to do so even in the face of oppressive situation.

Should we give honor to every fashion that has come and gone? I don't think so. During colonial times clothing fashions were used to to control peoples view of the situation.  Just as you stated; "Unveiling the Muslim woman of her headscarf was one of the colonizer's great challenges". Why do you think the colonizers wanted to do this? No doubt to control the situation by diluting the culture that they were trying to dominate for financial gain. Today the clothing industry is just as determined for control of people as were colonial masters. But a mature woman of what ever culture should remain true to herself and the standard that she holds as importan showing this stand by how she chooses to dress. Not being influenced by want is popularly said about the meaning and purpose of her style of dress.

Well said ussarn. It is as simple as that, every woman should dress as she feels strongly like.

In all cases, it is not the way we dress that determines who we are or how we feel about our womanhood. I think a veiled woman and one who doesn't cover both feel equally proud of their femininity. It is a question of whether we think we should market our womanhood or not. Sorry to put it that way.

but isn't a woman a person before she is a Wo-Man.

You keep talking about covering and not covering and marketing or not marketing and forget that we are persons first of all.

I think that the Hijab should be worn to the mosque; however it is the women's personal choice to wear or not to wear it, but if she should chose not to wear the hijab than she should dress modest. 

"Should we give honor to every fashion that has come and gone?"

"But a mature woman of what ever culture should remain true to herself and the standard that she holds as importan showing this stand by how she chooses to dress. Not being influenced by want is popularly said about the meaning and purpose of her style of dress."

I have notice that Muslim women are wearing name brand clothing.  Don’t Calvin Klein and D & G have their own lines of Hijabs?

So no matter what you wear or where you are in this world (which is increasingly getting smaller) the fashion industry has some what of an influence on what a woman wears.

So if a muslim woman shaves her head can she go without a hijab? 

Salaams

BB

Hi Nichole,

Thank you for your reply.  I am not Muslim, so I have difficulty understanding what Muslims write when they sprinkle in Arabic words.  Words like Juyubihinna, Fiqh, fatwahs are not to be found in any dictionary I check, so my questions are often made out of assumptions of what I think the intent of the sentence is. 

You wrote: "We, as humans are not the ones to judge what is ostentatious, moral or immoral."

Do you equate immorality and ostentatiousness as being sinful?

Is it immoral for a Muslim woman to be seen without her veil no matter what culture she is in? 

Is it immoral for a non-Muslim woman to go about without wearing a veil?

Is it immoral for a Muslim woman to wear clothes that draw attention to herself?

Finally, do the above questions have a simple yes or no answer, or are they relative to where the woman is and what situation she may be in?

Rosa

Hi Nichole,

Thank you for your reply. I am
> not Muslim, so I have difficulty understanding what
> Muslims write when they sprinkle in Arabic words.
> Words like Juyubihinna, Fiqh, fatwahs are not to be
> found in any dictionary I check, so my questions are
> often made out of assumptions of what I think the
> intent of the sentence is.

You wrote:
> "We, as humans are not the ones to judge what is
> ostentatious, moral or immoral."

Do you
> equate immorality and ostentatiousness as being
> sinful?

Is it immoral for a Muslim woman to be
> seen without her veil no matter what culture she is
> in?

Is it immoral for a
> non-Muslim woman to go about
> without wearing a veil?

Is it immoral for a
> Muslim woman to wear clothes that draw attention to
> herself?

Finally, do the above questions have a
> simple yes or no answer, or are they relative to
> where the woman is and what situation she may be
> in?

Rosa

I think there's space in Islam for cultural variety within the boarders of morality/Islam. Wear a skirt, jilbab, pants and pakistiani style shirts or whatever you call it and be modest.

 The colors also vary. It would be very strange to wear black in southeast Asia for example. But all this is within a framework and in the end an individual is supposed to have a right to choose. Everyone's experience even of faith is never the same.

Is it just me, or didn't I read somewhere in the Quran that Muslims should not imitate the behaviors/customs, of the non-believers? And wouldn't this also apply to dressing in a way that is 'different', in order to 'fit in' to a non-Muslim culture?

So I don't agree with this idea that we should dress in such a way as to 'fit in' with non-believers. We should dress in the way that Islam requires of us, period, regardless of where we are, or what the cultural norm is. The only exception to this, would be in a case where it puts our very lives in danger. (at which time, I have been told, it becomes permissable to 'hide' one's status as a Muslim, even to the point of denying it, verbally, if asked)

I think to dress 'ostentatiously', means to dress in such a way as to attempt to infer status to one's self, such as dressing in rich and fancy clothes, to show how prosperous we are...or alternatively, dressing in a certain way, to show we belong to a certain tribe or class of people, which has nothing to do with Islam, but just infers things like cultural and social status..

Dressing modestly and according to what Islam requires, is somewhat different. Though this may well cause others to attribute some kind of status upon us, our purpose (if sincere) is not to infer status upon ourselves, (by doing this for our own ego) but simply to obey Allah.

Some cultures are colorful by nature and have different ways of being 'modest' and muslim at the same time.

this is not the core problem, however. it is about how women see themselves whichever way they dress. talking about modesty is supposed to liberate women from this level of discussion not trap them in being merely a dress.

Hi Freedomlover,

You wrote: "Some cultures are colorful by nature and have different ways of being 'modest' and muslim at the same time."

This is exactly the point I was trying to make!

This is what modest muslim women look like in some cultures.www.adhunika.org/imagesIndex/adhFundNew.jpg [Edited by: moderator on Mar 26, 2007 8:13 AM]

Are you sure these girls are Muslim?? They don't seem to have their heads covered...

Hi Sahara,

Are you sure these girls are Muslim?? They don't seem to have their heads covered...

That's the point I was trying to make! 

I can show you literally hundreds of pictures of Muslim women in Bangladesh; teachers, students, at wedding celebrations, walking on the street, or just being tourists, and few cover their head.  Most will not be wearing a sari like the women in the picture, but they will be wearing a shalwar kameez with an orna.  They wear makeup, short sleeves, and many will not only wear lots of jewelry but will also have their nose pierced.  In this culture which is predominantly Muslim most women do not cover their heads. 

That is why I think that the so-called modesty that requires a woman to cover her head and wear long sleeves is an Arab cultural thing...not necessarily a Muslim thing.  These Muslim women would be insulted if you told them they were immodest since they do not cover their heads with a veil. 

Rosa 

Rosa, I am not trying to be argumentative but it is not optional for a Muslim woman to cover her head. Sure, many women don't but according to the Quran this is not something to be debated. It is a requirement.

Please see that the scholars of Islam are in agreeance about this.

"Wearing Hijab becomes obligatory on every girl once she reaches the age of puberty. This is when she starts to menstruate. So, if you have already reached puberty, then you must wear Hijab. " Zainab  Al-Alwani  Instructor of Fiqh and Islamic Studies, Graduate School of Islamic and Social Sciences

http://www.islamonline.net/livefatwa/english/Browse.asp?hGuestID=b1Vm39

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Must Muslim women wear the hijab? Question :
Why must Muslim women wear hijab?
Do some Muslims think that it is not mandatory, while others think that it is?
Please show me the passages in the Qur’an relating to women covering their hair.

Answer:

I think I should start by answering the last part of your question about the passages in Qur'an that direct the Muslim women to wear hijab as these passages will definitely answer the first part of the question: Why should women wear it?

And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not show off their beauty and ornaments except what is (ordinarily) visible thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards God, that ye may attain Bliss. Holy Quran, Surah 24 Verse 31

O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. Holy Quran Surah 33 Verse 59

The first reason for wearing hijab, then, is that it is a command from God. Religious Muslims - like any other religious people belonging to any revealed religion - don't feel comfortable in deliberately disobeying God! If some Muslims, despite of the semantic clarity of the Qur'anic verses, still think that this ruling is not mandatory, this will not alter the message.

We can have some Muslims who unjustly or ignorantly deny the illegality of drinking alcohol, eating pork or even committing major sins like stealing, fornicating… etc. This does not mean that such things are permitted in Islam! In Islam it is very easy to detect or judge whether a certain ruling is mandatory or not, by going back to the major sources of Islamic legislation. This we technically name as ‘shari'a’. Those sources are the Qur'an, the Holy Book of Muslims, and sunnah, which is the sayings and guiding acts of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), as stated in authentic books. So, simply this is the very same case with hijab.

Notice that this ruling of hijab, is highly esteemed among Muslim women, despite the big pressure of most regimes in the Muslim majority world to forbid it. Sometimes it is forbidden by force or women are discouraged from wearing it. The issue is seen as a means of secularizing or globalizing the Muslim states! This is, in-fact, except for two or three Muslim countries, which encourage their women to observe this ruling or at least "let it go".

The rest are on a savage war against it. Turkey is the outspoken example of such hostility, but the other regimes are not less hostile, albeit silently, towards it. Despite this fact you can find Muslim women insisting on wearing it, even if it costs them their jobs and social status ...

In fact, there is wisdom behind this heavenly command of hijab and behind Muslim women's challenge to wear it. It is that in the Islamic culture - like many other cultures - the idea of women's respectability and virtue is related, among other things, to the propriety of their dress. In Christianity for example, nuns cannot show up without their hijab. Also, regular ladies wear it while attending masses, which is a reflection of self-admission that God wants to see them this way! Also, as far as I know, in Judaism, the most religious faction amongst Jews, namely The Hassidics, have their strict rules about covering women’s bodies. Even in secular societies, some women judges have to cover their heads, during sessions, as a way to show their dignity and self-respect.

Remember that your own puritan American society, before being swept over in the 1950s, by this permissive value system, used to look with embarrassment to any woman going out to the street without her hat! Mini skirts only appeared recently together with the secular and atheist style of life that some people in the west - and the East as well - chose for themselves.

You can also tell that hijab is the way Islam neutralizes a woman's stereotyped role as a mere female, by inciting the society to deal with her as a human being away from her "extra feminine powers"! No wonder then that the majority of Muslim women refuse to let their ‘mill go with all winds’ and that they insist on keeping their Islamic identity. This is regardless of the consistent unfair criticism and sometimes satire against it. They wear hijab, not only in submission to God's order, but also because their inherent moral code is in full harmony with its philosophy.

The term hijab means more than just covering the hair and refers to the general code of modesty outlined in the verses quoted above. To understand what is implied in these verses, consider what it is that women do to show off their beauty. What is it they make a display of to be sexually attractive?

Though to some extent what constitutes showing off of one's beauty depends on the cultural context we live in, there are many parts of the body that are used for showing off beauty across all cultures and these are realities of our human condition not just culture. Hair is recognized by very many of the scholars of Islam, as well as other scholars across the world, as one of them. To be sure that you are not showing off your beauty as a woman you should cover up these areas appropriately.

Thank you

IslamOnline Fatwa Editing Desk

http://www.imanway.com/en/showthread.php?t=610
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There are too many other fatwas to quote.

According to my definition of what a 'Muslim' is, these women are not actually Muslim. I suppose they might be offended, if I told them so, but that would still be my general assessment. These are the type, who are Muslim 'in name only', which in my book, means 'not Muslim at all'. If your actions don't make you Muslim, then what does?? We're just supposed to take your word for it, no matter what you do?

I believe what is occurring in India, is known as 'innovation'.

For me, life has to 'make sense'. It doesn't make much sense, to say you are 'Muslim' , but then never read the Quran, or apply anything it says, to your daily life...does it?

Thinking about the picture of those girls, I would have to say they appear to be more like those who are 'clothed, but not clothed'. Even though they are wearing clothing, and it could be said the clothing covers some parts of the their body, yet it is also worn in such a way that it is totally meant to accentuate, adorn, and call attention to their bodies and their beauty. And certainly they are beautiful girls...

But what is the effect of posting their picture all over the net, with all their beauty adorned and obvious? Men of all sorts drooling over them, and some of them coming around to bother them, no doubt. Pervs, and married men, and whoever, coming around... (in fact, it seems to me, the whole point of this photo, was to call attention to the physical features of 3 beautiful young girls)

Though I don't suppose it would be all that unusual, to find that the 'Muslim' parents of these girls are even willing to 'sell them off' to whatever man comes around offering money. Possibly even some rich American, or some other non-Muslim? But is that really the best thing, for these girls? To make themselves into a 'commodity', and sell themselves off to the highest bidder? They themselves might even see it as an improvement over whatever conditions they are living in now, but how are they going to be treated, by a man who views them only as a 'commodity'? What happens to them, when they get older, and their beauty wears off? Do they get discarded, with about as much ceremony as throwing away a sack of garbage?

Hi Sahara,

If your actions don't make you Muslim, then what does??

And all this time I thought it was a certain set of beliefs that made one Muslim.

I will accept what you say are the qualifying qualities of your own religion.  I really have no problem with women wearing cultural clothing.  But I DO have a problem with the idea that God wants women to renounce the modest clothing of their own culture in favor of the dress of the ancient Arabic culture. 

...be aware that the person posting in this thread, under the user name 'Crescent Moon', is really BOB.

LOL!  Comparing the past posts of both Crescent Moon and BOB I am sure they will each have a good laugh over your assessment, also.

Posting a photo like that, might as well put a 'for sale' sign on your daughters.

What a strange comment.  Do Muslims often sell their daughters?  Do Muslim men look for wives to buy off the internet?

Rosa

Do not be deceived Rosa. I acquired proof that BOB and Crescent Moon are the same person, many months ago. You yourself can also see the proof of it, if you follow former threads relating to conversations between me and BOB, (and 'Crescent Moon') about Hugo Chavez. In these posts, the user who calls themselves 'Crescent Moon' posts a false email address, which they claim is the email address of Hugo Chavez. Believing that this 'Crescent Moon' was a sincere person, I sent a privaate email, to what I thought was Hugo Chavez's email address. The answer to that email, however, came from none other than BOB, who made a mistake, however, (either intentionally or accidentally) and included his own name in the details of the reply email.. (though the email itself claimed to be from Hugo Chavez, and was actually quite convincing. I've retained a copy of that email, if you'd like to view it). Once I discovered this deception, BOB then admitted he himself had fabricated the false email address, in order to get me to send him a private email, by which he could then obtain certain personal info about me. (my private email address, and anything he could 'google', using that) Now the important thing to ask yourself is: if BOB is the one who fabricated the false email address, how is it 'Crescent Moon' is the one who posted the false email address?

There are only two possible conclusions to come to, as a result of this situation. Either BOB and Crescent Moon conspired together, to post a false email address for Hugo Chavez, (and also conspired together to share info about anyone who sent emails to that false address) or BOB and Crescent Moon are actually the same person. Draw your own conclusions. I've made complaints to the IOL moderators about this sitaution, but they have not acted on it. (even though their rules state you cannot post in this forum under numerous identities) {Ok, there is one other possibility, BOB may have privately given this email address to Crescent Moon, but I seriously doubt that, as when I posted about my experience with this 'false email address', and the results of sending an email to that address, the person who calls themselves 'Crescent Moon', had no comment)

As for the rest - if your beliefs are sincere, then they should translate into actions. For instance, will you say you don't believe in adultery, but then go commit it anyway, and still expect anyone to take you seriously, when you say you don't 'believe' in committing adultery?

And I see no point in the photo of the girls, that was posted in this thread, other than to show off their beauty, in hopes of attracting the attention of men. And of course, you notice the automatic response of some men in this thread, upon seeing this photo, is to regard these girls as if they are some kind of mechandise, which has just been put up on a shelf for all the view, who then respond with comments like "I'll take that one".

(Who knows, perhap this is even how BOB got his foreign wife? Someone showed him a photo, and he just said 'I'll take that one'?)

Hi Sahara,

if your beliefs are sincere, then they should translate into actions.

You are absolutely correct.  Actions DO speak louder than words.  But your example of adultery is way off base (sleeping with another person's spouse is not the same as allowing a man to see a wayward strand of hair). 

Here is a better example which will prove my point. 

You believe God not only tells people to dress modestly, but He tells people EXACTLY how they are to appear and that is something that cannot be tampered with.  No adjustments can be made to compensate for cultural differences.  Am I correct so far?  Feel free to correct me at any point.

Therefore you believe women's hair should be covered, along with their necks, arms, and legs.  Her clothing cannot reveal her curves and she is not allowed to stamp her feet (I had to throw that in because I think it is an amusing "law of God" ).  You also believe that men should allow their beards to grow untrimmed. 

Can a woman go to a Mosque to pray if her hair is uncovered?

Can a man go to a Mosque to pray if he is clean-shaven or has a neatly trimmed beard?

For what purpose do you think men trim their beards??  BECAUSE IT IMPROVES THEIR APPEARANCE--MAKES THEM FIT IN WITH THE REST OF THE CLEAN-SHAVEN SOCIETY!!

Like I said, actions speak louder than words! 

And I see no point in the photo of the girls, that was posted in this thread, other than to show off their beauty, in hopes of attracting the attention of men.

There is nothing wrong with seeing pictures of women who are modestly dressed.  IOL has pictures of many scarved young women and beardless men.  Are those pictures also used for the purpose of attracting the attention of the opposite sex? 

Rosa

There is a certain 'pointless' aspect to discussing a topic with someone who has already made up their mind, and so, is only here to 'argue'...

However, due to being somewhat bored, I will attempt to respond anyway..(even though I know nothing I say is likely to make a big difference.)

First of all, I would like to ask - Are you Muslim? And exactly why do you have so much hostility towards the idea of a woman dressing modestly and covering her head? (aka - dressing according to Islamic standards) Is this due to a feeling of hostility towards Muslims in general, perhaps?

As for the rest of your comments, I will only say this - You either accept God's commandments, or you don't. If you're trying to argue your way out of them somehow, I can't help you with that. I'm sure there are a million different arguments a person can come up with, to justify disobeying God, but that doesn't prove that God is wrong. If you are looking at the way men do things, to justify your arguments, then I can only say - God knows better than man, what is best for us. Clearly, that's not an idea you've accepted yet, and are not ready to understand yet...

I have lived my entire life (nearly half a century) in a non-Islamic environment, where people act and dress as they please. I myself have been through many 'phases', when it comes to how I choose to dress, I've worn the shortest mini-skirts and shorts, the tightest jeans, the most revealing tops imaginable...I even went through a 'nudist' phase! (it was the 70's, what can I say?) I've had my hair permed and cut, and molded into a hundred different styles, so I guess you could say I've 'seen it all', when it comes to the many different ways there are to do things. However, after having seen most of what this world has to offer, I have finally settled on God's way, as the better way to do things... I finally realized that all my attempts to alter my appearance, to please men, were really just in vain, and they never actually gained me any real measure of success or happiness. (even though that's what the world promised me these habits would bring)

At this point, I personally don't even believe in showing the face, in photos, so I guess you could say I'm more 'hard core' than even many other Muslims out there, in that respect, so yes, I would say, even in the case of Muslim women, who choose to reveal their faces in photos, (or just in public) there often is still an intention to 'seduce'. Perhaps it is only a subconscious choice, on the part of many, perhaps they themselves are not even fully aware of their own intentions, but it's still there. And in the case of men, I would say any man who shaves his face, is not practicing Islam as he should be. He has been compromised.

Although, I will also say this - I do think learning to be modest, is 'a work in progress' for many of us. We have to learn to look inside ourselves, and be honest with ourselves about our own weaknesses and intentions, and usually, for most of us, that is a process which takes time. So while I do not agree with uncovering one's hair, or showing one's face in public, etc. (and do keep in mind, the rules are a bit different for women, than for men, due to the fact that the women are 'the weaker sex', and therefore less able to protect themselves from the inappropriate advances of others) I also understand that people are at different levels, in their journey towards God, so it's not like I go around yelling at people, if they choose to do things differently than I do. When it comes to other Muslims, I generally accept them as they are, but I will still choose to do things a bit differently, myself, because that is what I find peace with. That is where I'm at, on my journey. I understand some people are in a different place right now. But I also trust that those who are truly sincere in their desire to purify themselves and get closer to Allah, will eventually find themselves in the same place as myself, because I know that's where the journey eventually leads. Contrary to what you might believe, I'm really not very judgemental with other people, because I know I was once about as bad as any person can get, and God still had patience with me, and gave me time to learn and change, so how could I be any less patient, with other people?

You should probably also take into consideration that I have numerous family members who are not Muslim, and who do not dress 'modestly', according to my own standards, but we still manage to get along reasonbly well, although I do hope to encourage them to do things in a better way, as time goes by. I know they're not quite ready for it, right now, but I trust they will end up having experiences similar to what I did, as they try to manage their daily lives, in this ungodly and sinful, dangerous world, which will eventually cause them to realize, (as I finally did), that there has to be a better way!

I believe Islam offers the better way. Whether or not you choose to accept it, is your affair.

Hi Sahara,

First of all, I would like to ask - Are you Muslim?

Clearly, I am not Muslim. 

And exactly why do you have so much hostility towards the idea of a woman dressing modestly and covering her head? (aka - dressing according to Islamic standards)

I prefer to say that I am being confrontational, because I do not hold any hostility to anyone's modest cultural dress.  But I do question the things you say are immodest such as the sight of women's hair and men's clean-shaven faces.   You, on the other hand, have shown a great deal of hostility to the way the young women in the picture are dressed, calling their modest clothing "innovative" and by saying they were not REALLY Muslims simply because they dress in a non-Arabic fashion.  

By the way, if looking at pictures of people is so objectionable, you did not need to copy and paste the link I provided.  It clearly said,  "This is what modest muslim women look like in some cultures."

You didn't answer my questions.

Can a woman enter a mosque without wearing a veil?

Can a man enter a mosque if he is clean-shaven or has a fashionably trimmed beard? 

Rosa

Rosa,

Please first learn the requirements of Islam, before confronting others about how they do or do not practice them.

You admit you are not Muslim. So what is your purpose for this 'confrontational attitude' in an Islamic discussion forum, unless it is to show hostility for Islam, and what Islam represents?

However, there is nothing 'hostile' about stating simple facts. Islam requires a certain dress code. Those who do not follow that dress code are innovating. It's nothing personal, on my part. Just making an objective observation.

I also do  not consider it 'hostile', just consistent, to state that those who do not practice Islam, cannot really be Muslims, even if they say they are...

Consistency is important to me. If someone says to me they are Muslim, then I expect them to behave as if they are. If they don't behave like Muslims, then I have no reason to take their claims seriously. I see nothing at all wrong with that.

I'm not sure where you got the idea, but I didn't 'copy and paste' any pictures, I just clicked on a link, in order to view a picture, in order to have a sense of what the topic was about. How was I to know these women would  not be properly dressed and covered, since the post claimed they were 'Muslim'? I trusted they would at least have their heads covered!  In fact, I see no proof that these women are actually Muslim. For all I know, they could be Hindu. They certainly seem to be dressed for the part...

Since I've never been to a mosque myself, I can't answer your last 2 questions. Although I imagine a lot would depend on which mosque you went to... In any case, I don't think what is accepted in any given mosque, determines what Islam actually requires, as people do innovate. If you want to know what Islam requires, you have to actually study Islam, learn what it teaches, and learn what it requires.

Veiling is not a Muslim and Arab thing. Even Christian nuns and portraits of Virgin Mary use a veil, don't they? 

You may have a point. These women are not following the orthodox interpretation of Islam that states the hijab is mandatory. Perhaps they should be dressed more like this Tehranian Muslimah

http://www.iranian.com/Anyway/2007/March/wo.html

BB

The explanation is almost too simple to bother with, but I'll try to clarify it for you anyway...

Tribes and social classes are not related to religion, they are secular classes and distinctions. Dressing according to a 'religious code' has to do with morality, not class structure. Your not dressing to please other people, or to get the attention or approval of other people, you're dressing to meet religious requirements.

Spending $200 for a pair of pants seems a bit extravagant, to me, so yes, I would consider this a form of 'showing off'. (but then again, got to remember I'm a 'welfare mother' of many years, who would probably consider it quite painful to even spend $20 on a pair of pants!)

I think your ego shows through pretty clearly, when you say, you will buy a pair of $200 pants, because 'you can afford it'. It's a way of touting your elevated financial status... (and yes, extravagance is also something Islam frowns upon) Why else would you spend $200 on a pair of pants, when you could easily purchase something much cheaper?

Try doing this instead: Buy yourself a perfectly good pair of pants for $50, then donate the other $150 to the poor...

Assalamualaikum,

May the peace of God be on all of us.

Just observations on Rosa comments:

The question to wear or not to wear a headscarf is not debatable. We are ordained to wear it and we obey by the law. There are islamic rulings and laws that we are obliged to abide by. for ex: what you may perceive as a way to draw attention, even in that context it is a different kind of attention that you are drawing. The muslim girl dresses moderately with a headscarf and a blonde who is half naked. The opposite gender will have a look of curiosity when looking at the girl with the headscarf whereas looking at the blonde will be out of lust. As a female, I would rather to be looked at out of curiosity.

You said that you wear what is most suitable for you in a given occasion. Only someone without an identity will act and think this way, like they said you dont believe in anything so you fall for everything. ( With all your respect not mean to sound rude, but that's the reality). I will not dress in a given way just to be part of the crowd. My identity and personality should not dictate my presence.

We dont just do things to fit in societies, rather we make society.

Hi Shaneze,

May the peace of God be on all of us.

Thank you for the blessing. May God's peace be upon you also.

The question to wear or not to wear a headscarf is not debatable. We are ordained to wear it and we obey by the law.

So I ask, what is the difference between the "law" that cannot be broken...such as the one that says a woman must wear a headscarf, and the "law" that is okay to be broken...such as the one that says a man cannot trim or shave his beard?  These are comparable laws; they both have to do with hair on the head, they both have to do with facial recognition, they both have to do with ones “attractiveness”, they were both decreed in a time and place when beards and veils were commonplace customs (before safety razors or sewing machines were invented).

The muslim girl dresses moderately with a headscarf and a blonde who is half naked. The opposite gender will have a look of curiosity when looking at the girl with the headscarf whereas looking at the blonde will be out of lust.

Hold on a minute.  Who is saying the ONLY options for women are EITHER wearing Arabic cultural clothing OR going about half naked????  NO ONE BUT YOU!!!!  THERE ARE MORE THAN TWO OPTIONS!  One option is modest cultural clothing...like the clothing I wear, or the things my daughter wears in Bangladesh.  We use our common sense within our given cultures to dress without attracting unwanted attention.    

Why do you associate being blonde with being half naked?  You really do have a cultural problem with people who are non-Arabic in appearance, don't you? 

And honestly, if a man lusts after my hair color, he has an abnormal fetish.  I have heard of men who have a shoe fetish...must all women wear army boots so as to not attract attention of those weirdoes also?   

You said that you wear what is most suitable for you in a given occasion. Only someone without an identity will act and think this way

I confess, I wear clothing suitable for a given occasion...no apologies!  Do you think I should wear the coveralls that I wear to the barn splattered with cow manure, into Church or to the grocery store?  Or do you think I should always be identified as a cattle farmer by smell?  It's called, using COMMON SENSE. 

With all your respect not mean to sound rude 

It's not rude, just very sad to consider that you think God gives men common sense to determine whether he needs to wear a suit or a loincloth (from his knees to his ankles) when it is appropriate, but you think women cannot wear occasion-appropriate clothing.  Centuries ago, some silly woman appeared before Mohammed wearing a see-through dress and you think his instructions to her to cover herself indicates that no woman can figure out how to dress modestly... but a man can.  Sad, sad indeed!

Isn't that REALLY what God wants of us...to dress modestly WITHOUT attracting unwanted attention?  Isn't that what men have done when they adapt the appearance of  facial hair to the culture they are in? 

I will not dress in a given way just to be part of the crowd.

Yet you insist that a woman of a non-Arabic culture must adopt the clothing style of ancient Arabic times in order to be a good Muslim.  You force her to do what you say you won't do...such hypocrisy!

Rosa

Hi Nyonya,

Thank you for your honest reply.  Your response and that of others has convinced me that your veil is something that Mohammed has told you women must wear, regardless of what culture you are in.  

I am gradually learning WHAT your beliefs are but many times I have a great deal of trouble understanding WHY.  I agree with Sahara when she said that things must make sense to her, and this is one thing that simply does not make sense to me.  I don't mean to offend you but, coming from an outsider looking in, the idea that MEN can go about nearly naked in a loincloth while WOMEN can only expose their faces and the palms of their hands does not seem like something Almighty God would say.  Instead, it seems to be a law made by a man who enjoys his own freedom but is unable to control his libido.   

It's true that men enjoy looking at scantily clad women.  And although women do not normally make cat-calls or whistles at handsome men, nevertheless, they enjoy looking at a well-groomed muscular body of the opposite sex.  Mohammed knew this about men, but because he was not a woman, he was unaware that it is also true of women.  This is why I feel Mohammed (not God) restricted the appearance of WOMEN because HE was the one experiencing the arousal.

Rosa 

Rosa_lia,  I have some information that might be of interest to you in gaining a greater understanding the complexities of Islam. I am an Anthropologist from the United States I mostly study Amish and mennonite religions but recently I have started studying Islam. These are some books that helped me a lot. Keep in mind that the different sources Quran, Hadith, not to mention the highly interpretive nature of the hadith by Islamic scholars from different schools of thought (fatwahs). Phew! Any how here are some great books although you could never read enough!

Judith Tucker "In the house of the law"

Law of Desire

Women the Quran and interpretations

Mussalam

"To honor the bride" -this is fiction but a beautiful story. It explains the logical approach in solving family oriented legal issues. With the hopeful outcome of  everyone benefiting the the fullest extent. 

Ok so i am having some difficulty in remembering the autors names. A very important place to start researching is Islamic law. Two other important things that helped me "cultural relativism" and remembering that Islamic cultures are likely to think in terms of working for the greater good and seem to resolve issues in a highly logical manner. As opposed to Americans who work for individual gain and tend to be more often driven by emotions and competitive natures. This last comment is just an observation I have made drawing off the very limited resources I have consulted. This is by no means something I am claiming as truth for everyone in these groups. But coming here and talking with muslim women was certainly a great way to gather information. Also there are many rough translations for Islamic terms and phrases online. Im not sure of the website but will be sure to post the address once I find it. The problem seems a lot of times that these terms being used are more of a concept or perhaps a word that is just not included in the english language. Its easy to pick up on after a little practice!

Thanks for such a lucid reply, Nyonya.

I have visited Egypt several times in the last year and have tried to ensure that I don't inadvertently cause offence or attract unwanted attention by not dressing suffienctly modestly by the standards of the communities I was in. This is not so much of an issue in places such as Dahab where the locals are 'used' to seeing western non-muslim women but I did feel like I stuck out like a sore thumb in Alexandria despite wearing a salwar kameeze with 3/4 length sleeves. I find such clothing as the salwar invaluable in hot places for keeping cool and in avoiding getting my rather pale skin fried to a crisp! That is, I'm not trying to mimic another culture or be something I'm not.

My question is this: If I am visiting a Muslim country as a non-Muslim western woman and don't want to appear 'loose' or immoral, how am I expected to dress?

Of course, I am ignoring countries where a particular style of modest dress is dicatated by law rather than being driven from personal desire to adhere to God's will in this question as in such places one simply has to comply with what is mandated.

Fee

I want to ask a question: why is the discussion of womanhood reduced to morality/immorality/veil debate?

Whether we support it or not, it is just one side, and there's a lot more about a woman to talk about. Her emotions, her achievements, her identity, motherhood. But it is US women who have come to associate ourselves with only this.

Charismatic Iraqi singer Shatha Hassoun shot to stardom in her war-torn homeland on Saturday as a symbol of unity after winning the Arab version of "American Idol"

Even in the deeply religious Shiite holy city of Najaf where every Iraqi woman on the street is draped head-to-toe in black abayas, a world away from the elegant cut of Shatha's strappy blue evening dress, people were delighted.

"We welcome this woman because she has held the name of Iraq aloft. We needed a voice to unify us," said Islamist politician Sabah Ahmed.

"Being an Islamist, I have some reservations about singing. But seven million votes for this woman from walks of society! With this percentage she outclassed politicians in Iraq. Therefore the victory unites Iraqis," he added.

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=20209

BB

That doesn't mean that hijabis can't have similar success

here's a girl who wanted to live her life normally with hijab but who'd let her

http://www.theglobalgame.com/blog/?p=241

Check this out!

A Woman's Will

http://www.islamonline.net/discussione/thread.jspa?threadID=6528&tstart=0

Rosa if you do not know why the differences among muslim women in regards to hijab, then you should ask the muslims who know why. For your information, hijab is compulsory for muslim women whereever they come from. If they are not wearing it in Bangladesh that is a matter between them and their lord. I am a Nigerian, and in Nigeria muslim women wear hijab and jilbab and bhukah. The arabs did not wear hijab before the advent of Islam. So, please stop this ignorance and know that it is ordained by Allah. If you don`t know anything about Islam, you should ask instaed of peddling ignorance. Have you asked yourself why Catholic nuns wear headscarf wherever they come from?

Thank you

Hi Btec,

You are right, sometimes I DO get a little sarcastic.  I try not to, but sometimes when I disagree with something, it just comes out that way.

 Hijab is completely Islamic and not cultural!

If you read the entire thread as you say you did, then you would have read where I conceded nearly three months ago that you are correct; the veil is a Muslim thing which started when Mohammed made his pronouoncement.  I came to realize it when I read the ahadith where Aisha said the wives made veils for themselves AFTER Mohammed's pronouncement.  This showed me that the veil was not something that women of the region wore before the there was a need.

As for the craziness you attribute to Umar (RA)--this is not even worth a reply.

Crazy but true!  I am sorry if it embarrasses you, but here it is in the ahadith:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 4, Number 148:

Narrated 'Aisha:

The wives of the Prophet used to go to Al-Manasi, a vast open place (near Baqia at Medina) to answer the call of nature at night. 'Umar used to say to the Prophet "Let your wives be veiled," but Allah's Apostle did not do so. One night Sauda bint Zam'a the wife of the Prophet went out at 'Isha' time and she was a tall lady. 'Umar addressed her and said, "I have recognized you, O Sauda." He said so, as he desired eagerly that the verses of Al-Hijab (the observing of veils by the Muslim women) may be revealed. So Allah revealed the verses of "Al-Hijab" (A complete body cover excluding the eyes).

Sahih Muslim  Book 026, Number 5397:

'A'isha reported that the wives of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) used to go out in the cover of night when they went to open fields (in the outskirts of Medina) for easing themselves. 'Umar b Khattab used to say: Allah's Messenger, ask your ladies to observe veil, but Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) did not do that. So there went out Sauda, daughter of Zama, the wife of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), during one of the nights when it was dark. She was a tall statured lady. 'Umar called her saying: Sauda, we recognise you. (He did this with the hope that the verses pertaining to veil would be revealed.) 'A'isha said: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, then revealed the verses pertaining to veil

Your equally ridiculous talk of Muslim men being able to wear loincloths is not only false

What would you call a garment that simply covers the area from the navel to the knees?  According to Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid in Islam Question and Answer, a site which is supposed to be a very good one for reading about Islam, that is precisely what Mohammed was describing...a loincloth.  You’re right about one thing though, according to this scholar men aren’t allowed to wear shorts.

http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref=150&ln=eng&txt=men's%20'awrah

"The `awrah (private parts to be necessarily covered) for men includes what is between the navel and the knees as stated by the Prophet SAWS (peace be upon him), so covering it is obligatory according to Islamic law."

I welcome any corrections on mistakes I may have made here! 

Rosa

"Hijab is completely Islamic and not cultural! "

No it's not.

The veil is not a uniquely Islamic convention; the practice has a long history in the Judeo-Christian tradition. Catholic nuns engage in the practice, of course, and there are several references to the practice in both the Old and New Testaments (King James Version). Ironically, the representation of veiling in the Bible is much more problematic than those in the Qur'an or the Hadith, because the Judeo-Christian sources imply that women should be covered because of their inherent inferiority. I Corinthians 11 (3-10) offers one example:

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying having his head covered, dishonoreth his head. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoreth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn or shaven; but if it be a hame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

http://www.english.emory.edu/Bahri/Veil.html

John Esposito, professor of Islamic Studies at Georgetown University, writes that the customs of veiling and seclusion of women in early Islam were assimilated from the conquered Persian and Byzantine societies and then later on they were viewed as appropriate expressions of Quranic norms and values.

Bloom and Blair also write that the Qur'an doesn't require women to wear veils; rather, it was a social habit picked up with the expansion of Islam. In fact, since it was impractical for working women to wear veils, "A veiled woman silently announced that her husband was rich enough to keep her idle."^[15]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab

Salaams

BB

I will not argue these points anymore however I feel it is my duty as a Muslim to inform you Rosa that it is very offensive to Muslims when you speak lightly or wrong of a Companion of the Prophet (SAW) such as Umar. I doubt that you meant it to sound this way but I just wanted to address it so that hopefully we can prevent it from happening again.

He did not hide to spy on the wives of the Prophet (SAW). This wife that is referred to was known to be very tall and while she walked through the area to walk out to the wilderness to answer the call of nature, Umar (May Allah be please with him) recognized her and called out to her so that she would feel embarrassed and perhaps Hijab would become mandatory.

The way that you phrased the story makes Umar (May Allah be please with him) sound negative and maybe you didn’t mean to make it sound that way. I don’t want to sound harsh but it is very terrible to Muslims to hear anything that might paint the Companions (May Allah be pleased with them all) in a negative way.

Nichole

Salams,

In Islam, no where, in the Quran, or in any authentic hadith has either Allah or the Prophet specified or instructed Muslim women to cover their head or hair. Most opinions about wearing headscarves are formulated by (male) scholars. (Remember, various scholars will have alternative views).

Modesty is the key. Men and Women should be decently dressed, they should not seek to attract attention, they should cover their genitals and women must also cover their chests. Both males and females should subdue their sexual glances and observe modesty and chastity.

For more information read these articles:

Origins of Hijab

Context of Hijab

Headscarf & Veiling

A Critic upon Jilbab

Splitting Hair to Cover Hair

Must a Woman Wear a Jilbab?

Hijab Has Nothing to do With Morality

The Qur'an Does Not Mandate Hijab

Misinterpretation of Quranic Verses on Hijab

Thoughts on Hijab By Sr. Ruqaiyyah Waris Maqsood

O you Children of Adam! We have bestowed on you raiment to cover your shame as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness, that is the best. Such are among the Signs of Allah, that they may receive admonition.” (Quran 7:26)

Finally, it is a woman's choice what she wears and there is no compulsion in religion.

The Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) has said that Islam is a religion of the middle path (Wast). The Qur'an has called the Muslim nation 'Ummat al-Wusta'.

وَكَذَلِكَ جَعَلْنَاكُمْ أُمَّةً وَسَطًا لِتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ وَيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ عَلَيْكُمْ شَهِيدًا … (البقرة 143)

Thus have We made of you a middle Ummah, that you might be witnesses over the people, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves… ( al-Baqarah 2:143)

Laa ikraaha fi-d-deen. Qad tabayyana ar-rushdu min al-ghayy

There is no compulsion in religion. Wisdom has been made distinct from the untruth.  (2;256)

I was resarching the President of that site that your quotes regarding hijab came from and I don't see any of his qualifications regarding Islam. He has a lot of education in many fields Masha'Allah but his site lists no Islamic degrees. Do you have any other proof that Hijab is not mandatory besides from that "Institute" and blogs of personal opinions?

If you were to assume that "gather" is what was meant by hijab in the Ayats it would make no sense. I don't understand your argument. And to say that scholars made the command of the hijab up is not possible. The memorization of haddith and Quran would make it impossible that scholars later added the command of hijab. The Prophet tells us in may Hadith that it is required to wear hijab and that the women who do not observe proper hijab will not even smell the scent of Paradise.

Have you read any of the Riyad As-Saliheen which are all Sahih hadith from the Prophet?

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=10&ID=5849&CATE=223

Concerning the standard explanation of the verse of hijab
Answered by Ustadha Zaynab Ansari

Nichole

Assalamu alaikum,
I wanted to get clarification on the explanation Sh. Nuh gave on the evidence for hijab. This has been a topic of debate since the hijab ban discussion in France and I'm unclear now on where the requirement comes from.

Sh. Nuh writes:

'There is no other lexical sense in which the word khimar may be construed. The wording of the command, however, and let them drape their headcoverings over their bosoms, sometimes confuses nonspecialists in the sciences of the Qur'an, and in truth, interpreting the Qur'an does sometimes require in-depth knowledge of the historical circumstances in which the various verses were revealed. In this instance, the elliptical form of the divine command is because women at the time of the revelation wore their headcovers tied back behind their necks, as some village women still do in Muslim countries, leaving the front of the neck bare, as well as the opening (Ar. singular jayb, plural juyub, translated as "bosoms" in the above verse) at the top of the dress. The Islamic revelation confirmed the practice of covering the head, understood from the use of the word khimar in the verse, but also explained that the custom of the time was not sufficient and that women were henceforth to tie the headcover in front and let it drape down to conceal the throat and the dress's opening at the top.'

I'm a bit confused about how the wording used in these particular verses are considered to be a command. My earlier understanding of the evidence for hijab was that the specificity of the command came from the hadith in Abu Dawood about the Prophet (AS) pointing out to Asma that only the face and hands should be revealed. Can you please clarify what it is about the wording/grammar in the verses reference above that makes them the evidence for the fard status for hijab? I'm not clear how the word "khimar" in and of itself is used as evidence to say that hijab is required.

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

Praise be to Allah. May Allah's peace and blessings shower upon our beloved Messenger.

Dear Sister,

The obligation of hijab is evident when we examine the grammatical structure of this verse.

The verse reads:

وَقُل لِّلْمُؤْمِنَاتِ يَغْضُضْنَ مِنْ أَبْصَارِهِنَّ

وَيَحْفَظْنَ فُرُوجَهُنَّ

وَلاَ يُبْدِينَ زِينَتَهُنَّ إِلاَّ مَا ظَهَرَ مِنْهَا

وَلْيَضْرِبْنَ بِخُمُرِهِنَّ عَلَى جُيُوبِهِنَّ

The translation:

"And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms..." [Abdullah Yusuf Ali]

The style of the language employed in the verse is very important. Allah Most High begins with the imperative form of the verb "qalla," which means to say or tell. Thus, Allah Most High is commanding the Prophet, peace be upon him, to tell the believing women to take a series of steps:

1. To guard their gaze, which is an important factor in modest interaction;

2. To guard their chastity or sexuality;

3. To conceal their adornment and natural beauty, which scholars have interpreted to mean the whole body except for the face, hands, and (for Hanafis) the feet.

4. And, finally, to emphasize the above point, Allah Ta'ala uses the phrase, "wa-lyadhribna bikhumurihinna ala juyubihinna." The verb "yadhribna" which means "to draw or pull over" appears as a feminine plural, thus going back to the original subject of the verse, the believing women. Most importantly, it starts off with the letter "lam," which is called "lam al-amr." Lam al-amr, when prefixed to a present tense verb, such as "yadhribna," makes the verb an imperative, that is, a command. It is not understood as a recommendation, but a specific command directly from Allah Most High to His slaves among the believing women.

Lam al-amr is used in other imperative contexts in the Qur'an. For example, Allah Ta'ala says, "Let the man of means spend according to his means: and the man whose resources are restricted, let him spend according to what God has given him..." [Al-Talaq, 65:7]

The Arabic reads:

لِيُنفِقْ ذُو سَعَةٍ مِّن سَعَتِهِ

وَمَن قُدِرَ عَلَيْهِ رِزْقُهُ فَلْيُنفِقْ مِمَّآ ءَاتَاهُ اللَّهُ لاَ يُكَلِّفُ اللَّهُ نَفْساً إِلاَّ مَآ ءَاتَاهَا

Here, Allah Most High is commanding men to spend according to their means in the context of child support for divorced wives.

This is understood to be a command, not a recommendation, since men are required to support their children. The lam of command, or lam al-amr, once again appears prefixed to the present verb, "yunfiq," meaning "to spend." [Qatr al-Nada, Dar al-Asmaa, 96]

To return to the verse in question, the phrase "wa-lyadhribna bikhumurihinna ala juyubihinna," is a command for women to draw their veils over their bosoms. Allah Most High did not say, "And tell the believing women to put on their veils," because implicit in the verse is the understanding that women were already expected to veil. However, unlike the practice at the time of leaving the scarf hanging down the back with the neck and cleavage exposed, Muslim women were to take it one step further and draw the "khimar" or veil over the neck and cleavage area. Those who argue that the Qur'an says nothing about veiling are completely misreading this verse. Not only does the Qur'anic text make it clear that women are expected to veil, it also dictates the extent of the veiling, i.e., covering the neck and cleavage.

This point is elucidated by reports from Aisha, may Allah be pleased with her, and other women of the Sahaba, who immediately implemented this verse by tearing up pieces of cloth and covering their hair and bodies. Al-Bukhari recorded that Aisha, may Allah be pleased with her, said: "May Allah have mercy on the women of the early emigrants. When Allah revealed the verse:

[وَلْيَضْرِبْنَ بِخُمُرِهِنَّ عَلَى جُيُوبِهِنَّ]

(and to draw their veils over their bosoms), they tore their aprons and veiled themselves [made khimars] with them.'' [Tafsir Ibn Kathir]

The actions of the Sahaba, may Allah be pleased with them all, did not indicate that hijab was optional. I find it interesting that hijab was not legislated in stages, as opposed to the ban on intoxicants. When the verses in Surat al-Nur were revealed, the female Sahaba immediately covered themselves. Would that we had a fraction of their iman!

And Allah knows best.

Umm Salah (Zaynab Ansari)

Salams,

You have probably read just one opinion and based it on that. The problem with this logic you have described is that unless someone has an "Islamic Degree" anyone else's opinion is not credible. There weren't Islamic degrees during the time after the sahibas and hadiths were written about nearly 65 years after the prophet pbuh passed away. I do not discount the hadiths you quoted, as they are the same hadiths that are quoted and discussed in the links I also have provided, however the Prophet (pbuh) never commanded women to cover the hair, nor is it mentioned in the hadiths that you've quoted, plus, one hadith you mentioned is weak and has a missing chain and is still silent about covering the hair. I have read your article on Sheikh Nuh's response, another "internet blog" as you described my links, months prior to my response here yesterday and I totally disagree with this opinion as there is NO EVIDENCE either from the Quran or Sunnah that the khimar must cover all the hair. The Prophet never ordered it and neither has Allah (swt) ordered us to wear a khimar (covering) on our heads. Some Arabic women were not even wearing the khimar at all, if they did it was ornamentally hung around their heads or necks & main use was for desert purposes such as the heat of the sun and sand storms. It would be interesting if you studied where the history of veiling faces and heads actually originated from. However you are free to follow your opinion as I am free to follow mine but I disagree strongly with you if you are saying all women must cover their hair, as only the bosoms (jayb) is mentioned in the verse in the Quran about the khimar, the "shar" and "ras" or the head is not even mentioned and my point above is very clear.

I have given you numerous links from various scholars, but if you want to disregard and discredit them as only internet blogs that is up to you. Sheikh Nuh that you quoted and Yusuf Qaradawi are only two Islamic Scholars there are many, many more diverse scholars. Amjad Moiz from Understanding Islam.com is not just a lay person or an internet blog, he is an Islamic Scholar from the Al Mawrid Institute in Pakistan  and Shehzad Saleem from the same Institute is another Islamic Scholar. Dr Zaki Badawi, also another Islamic Scholar has the same opinion about the headscarf not being obligatory is yet another. Tariq Ramadan with the same opinions that the headscarf is not fard, is another and I have given you a link from Ruqayyah Maqsud who also says a women covering her chest with the khimar has fulfilled her Islamic duty according to the Quran and no where in Islam can women be reprimanded for not covering her hair or how they choose to dress.

No one is forcing you to take your headscarf or veil off so in the same courtesy no one should be forced or compelled to wear one or be called a "hypocrite" if they don't, as some women deride others. Women have the right to choose which Islamic opinion they wish to follow. I suggest you read all the opinions of various scholars below before making assumptions about me or my intelligence or before you start a lengthy debate and attack me with fabricated or weak hadiths and mistranslations of hadiths. I can also copy and paste large passages form scholars but I do not like to intimidate people as that is something I beleive my faith does not teach me. That is why I have provided you with the links but you have obviously not taken effort to read or research any of them.

If you want other hard evidence from scholars, I suggest you first start reading and studying all the links I given before debating with me and then research this further through these two books, one is from a female scholar who has studied in Al Ahzar University (it also makes me wonder why there are such few female scholars):

Qur'an and Woman: Rereading the Sacred Text from a Woman's Perspective by Amina Wadud (Islamic Scholar)

Believing Women" in Islam: Unreading Patriarchal Interpretations of the Qur'an  by Asma Barlas

Origins of Hijab

Context of Hijab

Headscarf & Veiling

A Critic upon Jilbab

Splitting Hair to Cover Hair

Must a Woman Wear a Jilbab?

Hijab Has Nothing to do With Morality

The Qur'an Does Not Mandate Hijab

Misinterpretation of Quranic Verses on Hijab

Thoughts on Hijab By Sr. Ruqaiyyah Waris Maqsood

So it is not right to make women who are not wearing a headscarf feel they are unchaste by making yourself appear more holier than them. Read the Quran verse very carefully and think about what type of people Allah swt considers pious. No one has the right to force women how to dress or dictate to others how to follow the path of Islam or how women should dress.

You have no right to tell me which shcolar I should follow. I do not follow any scholar but the Quran and the Messenger. I use my fitra and my conscious and see which is the most Islamic opinion and follow that.

Most importantly Scholars are not infallible, they are not those we worship. And Allah swt has told us to use our intelligence and to refer to the Prophet or the Quran if we disagree. Also not all people who have not got a degree in Islamic studies from Qatar or Saudi are lacking in sense or intelligence. 

In the end our duty is to obey Allah and the Messenger. As long as feel we are doing our duty and we are dressed decently and not hurting others, that is what matters. There is no compulsion in religion. This is clear from the Quran passages and from the Prophet's life.

O you Children of Adam! We have bestowed on you raiment to cover your shame as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness, that is the best. Such are among the Signs of Allah, that they may receive admonition.” (Quran 7:26)

Laa ikraaha fi-d-deen. Qad tabayyana ar-rushdu min al-ghayy

There is no compulsion in religion. Wisdom has been made distinct from the untruth.  (2;256)

The Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) has said that Islam is a religion of the middle path (Wast). The Qur'an has called the Muslim nation 'Ummat al-Wusta'.

وَكَذَلِكَ جَعَلْنَاكُمْ أُمَّةً وَسَطًا لِتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ وَيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ عَلَيْكُمْ شَهِيدًا … (البقرة 143)

Thus have We made of you a middle Ummah, that you might be witnesses over the people, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves… ( al-Baqarah 2:143)

Wasalam,

Fitra

All of the 4 major schools of thought have agreed that it is mandatory. How can you disagree with all of them when they learned from the Prophet (SAW) and his companions (may Allah be pleased with them) and instead, take the opinions of the modern "scholars" with the typical fast-food-fatwas many of them give?

You're right, the women of the time used to wear scarfs on their head and just leave it trailing down their backs. That's why the verse tells them to drape it over their chests. If you have a scarf on your head already and you take part of it to drape it over your chest, what would you get? A hijab! Why would Allah tell the women to cover their heads if they already were covering? He simply told them to go further and wrap the cloth that was already there back to cover their chests which would then cover their ears and neck in the process.

Arabic is a rich language with many meaning for words. The meaning of Khymar means "top cover." That's a covering for the head.

You said yourself that scholars are not infallible yet you have quoted scholars and are relying on their opinions against the OVERWHELMING amounts of opposing opinions by not only more reputable scholars but the 4 major schools of thought. And more than a couple of the scholars aren't even native Arabic speaker yet you use their translation of Arabic over native speakers' translations.

You have quoted many scholars, yes. But the ones that oppose this view FAR outnumber them to be incomparable. You have chosen to go with the minority view instead of the majority which is what we have been told NOT to do by the Prophet (SAW) and what's worse is that you are spreading your opinion to Muslims that might not know any better. Either way, I've spoken out about what is wrong. The Prophet (SAW) warned women that if they are dressed but naked (not attired properly) that they will not even SMELL Paradise. I've fulfilled what I'm required to as a Muslim. You are entitled to keep your opinion but I am required as a Muslim to speak out when a Muslim is doing something against the Sunnah and Quran.

I am not trying to force you to wear hijab. There is no compulsion in religion, that's right but there are commands from Allah that we have to follow. It is up to you if you want to use your concience to tell you what is required however, that is not reliable since we can't tell what is speaking to us, our concience, our nafs or shaytan. That is why we were given explicit orders by Allah and one of those is khymar (top cover) and hijab (screen). It's up to you if you follow it or not. Insha'Allah I have done my part to encorage good and forbid evil. I'm done with the discussion.

Asalaamu alaikum

Nichole

Assalamoalykum,