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Thread: Nakba 61 Years On The Theft Of The Land...
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Replies:
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Last Post:
May 14, 2009 11:01 AM
by: henda11
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Nakba 61 Years On The Theft Of The Land...
Posted:
May 11, 2009 8:46 AM
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Every day and night, we listen to the politicians everywhere repeating this term “A two-state solution”. To have two states, Palestinian and Israeli, to live together in peace side by side. After 61 years on the Nakba, have you ever considered “A two-state project” as a just and fair solution to the continuous war there in the Middle East? Is it possible or impossible to carry out that project in reality? And the most important question, would the Palestinians and Israelis accept that? Message was edited by: Moderators
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Re: Nakba 61 Years on: A Two-state solution…Successful?
Posted:
May 11, 2009 9:37 AM
in response to:
RagbTAR
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The Israelis have ALWAYS accepted the two-state solution even BEFORE the state was established in 1948. We always acknowledged the need for the Jews and Arabs to live alongside each other and when the U.N. voted on the partition plan in 1947 the population in Palestine rejoiced - except for the Arabs of course. From the beginning they've opposed any attempt to legitimize the Jewish settlement in Palestine and there were numerous uprisings against the Jewish settlers - led by Abdul Kader Al Husseini and others. In 1948, when the state was established, the Arab inhabitants of Israel were incited by the Arab leaders to leave their homes for a false fear of the Jews - thus creating the refugee problem that exists till today. Israel has long ago accepted that a Palestinian state is the only solution for peace. This was clearly stated in the Oslo accords signed with the PLO in 1993. This agreement gave a period of 5 years to establish the Palestinian state. Unfortunately, Hamas began a bloody campaign of terror against us - led by "the engineer" Yehiya Ayash. A campaign that left scores of Israelis dead. The Oslo process was supposed to culminate in the establishment of the Palestinian state in the territories that Israel captured in 1967 and was willing to give up in exchange for peace. Unfortunately, the process came to a terrible halt when prime minister Yitzchak Rabin was assasinated in 1995 and the right-wing likud party came to power. To make a long story short - a majority of Israelis totally agree with a two-state solution. We don't want to rule over the Palestinians - and we never have. I firmly believe that as soon as the Palestinians have a REAL government ready to lay down arms, recognize Israel and finally sit down with us and try to resolve our differences that's when the time will be right for the Palestinians to finally have the peace and prosperity they deserve. That being said, this will never happen as long as Hamas has the Palestinian people under seige and in the grip of despair. In order for the two-state solution to work there must be a RESPONSIBLE Palestinian government who would be willing to work with Israel for the benefit of the Palestinian people. I'm still hoping that I will get to see this in my lifetime.
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Muslim live in Egypt
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Re: Nakba 61 Years on: A Two-state solution…Successful?
Posted:
May 11, 2009 10:54 AM
in response to:
Elaine_from_Isr...
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There’s only one state called Palestine. If you do not believe me look at this Pages: 1
Username Login Time Online (mins) Idle (mins) PostsCountry1 Elaine_from_Israel May 11, 2009 9:38 AM 24 22 239 
Occupied Palestine A horrible day to you Elaine_from_occupied Palestine, Let’s wait and see who will laugh at the end. 
Message was edited by: moderator
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Re: Nakba 61 Years on: A Two-state solution…Successful?
Posted:
May 12, 2009 11:27 PM
in response to:
Maryam95
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I really don't know what you're finding "humor" at Maryam95??? Israel isn't like the US, their not "temporary" occupiers that will one day pack up and leave these miserable hellish holes to their own suffering. The Jews are "established" and "determined" to defend what they see as their homes and nation. That's an awful powerful insentive and no five Arab nations are powerful enough to change that, much less the ragtag boys of Hamas or Hezbollah.
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Re: Nakba 61 Years on: A Two-state solution…Successful?
Posted:
May 13, 2009 12:01 AM
in response to:
AmGI
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Myself, I honestly do believe Israel is not going to make it as a nation forever. I think deep down inside every joo knows it too. All that keeps Israel going is the u.s. pumping billions of dollars into in every year in foreign aid. But...the u.s. economy is not what it used to be. Maybe they will have to cut back on free money to Israel. You realize..the u.s. gives israel about 3 or 4 billion dollars a year... they estimate the total probably is 6 billion at least. Yearly. That is all that keeps israel going. For a country like israel with 9 million people? That amount of aid is staggering. Also, the Arab and Palestine birth rate is Way higher than joo land. Even massive immigration will not save israel.
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Muslim live in Egypt
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Re: Nakba 61 Years on: A Two-state solution…Successful?
Posted:
May 11, 2009 11:27 AM
in response to:
Elaine_from_Isr...
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Haven't you read your own zionist PM's diary and confession!! You helpless zionist angels!!! I told Lavon that this [attack] will be a grave error, and recalled, citing various precedents, that it was never proved that reprisal actions serve their declared purpose. Lavon smiled ... and kept to his own idea.... Ben Gurion, he said, didn't share my view. (14 October 1953, 37) According to the first news from the other side, thirty houses have been demolished in one village. This reprisal is unprecedented in its dimensions and in the offensive power used. I walked up and down in my room, helpless and utterly depressed by my feeling of impotence. . . . I was simply horrified by the description in Radio Ramallah's broadcast of the destruction of the Arab village- Tens of houses have been razed to the soil and tens of people killed. I can imagine the storm that will break out tomorrow in the Arab and Western capitals. (15 October 1953, 39) I must underline that when I opposed the action I didn't even remotely suspect such a bloodbath. I thought that I was opposing one of those actions which have become a routine in the past. Had I even remotely suspected that such a massacre was to be held, I would have raised real hell. (16 October 1953, 44) PM Sharett himself described the massacre and called it “a massacre”. He talked about “routine attacks”. That’s what zionists where doing all the time over and over again till now, this is them. Now, someone might ask why they were doing this? back in 1953 where the zionists retaliating because of Arab attacks? Where there any Qassam rockets launched on zionists? No, It’s their policy and character, ethnically cleansing Arabs along with their homes and village to build their own zionist entity. This is their policy till the illegal entity of Israel is dismantled and vanished. Israel's Sacred Terrorism: PM Sharett's Personal Diary http://www.islamonline.net/discussione/thread.jspa?messageID=173700𪚄
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Re: Nakba 61 Years on: A Two-state solution…Successful?
Posted:
May 11, 2009 11:02 AM
in response to:
RagbTAR
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Illegal Occupation.. Sorry for publishing some maps with Israel written on them instead of Palestine.. those are foreign maps from a foreign site and I've put them as they reached me. I know this post is long, but don't miss a letter of it. 
Illegal occupation

The land between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea - called Palestine since the age of Herodotus - has been home for a diverse ethnic mix over its long history. The Jews of the Torah had dispersed by the time of the Arab conquest in the 7th century; in 1887 all but 5% of the population of Palestine was Muslim and Christian Arabs. Assisted by the infamous 'Balfour declaration' http://morgan.ucs.mun.ca/~ijones/declaration.html
in which the British colonial power occupying Palestine unilaterally declared support for its use as a Jewish homeland, and spurred by vicious anti-semitism in Europe and Russia, a wave of Zionist immigration increased the European population of Palestine sevenfold by 1947. That year, fearing a further colonial siezure of their land by Europeans, the Arabs rejected a U.N. partition plan leading to a Zionist war that left newly created Israel in possession of most of Palestine. By 1949, more than 700,000 Arabs had been driven from their homes and lands (418 villages ethnically cleansed), their holdings declared "absentee property" and confiscated by Israel, which refuses to re-admit them. The remainder of Palestine - 'West Bank' and 'Gaza Strip' remained free of occupation until the Israeli invasion in 1967. In contradiction of U.N. Security Council resolutions 242 and 338 calling for immediate withdrawal from these illegally occupied territories, Israel maintains the remainder of Palestine under military control and is constructing militarized Jewish 'settlements' and connecting roads, a step condemned by the U.N. as a breach of the 4th Geneva Convention. Meanwhile, the Palestinians endure brutal repression while Israel receives unwavering political support for its illegal actions, and massive military and economic aid, from the United States of America.

More maps tracing the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (BBC)

Israel invaded the remainder of Palestine in 1967 and has maintained an illegal and brutal occupation ever since. Israeli 'Settlements' - in contravention of U.N. Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, and the Fourth Geneva Convention - Section III - Article 49 which states 'The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.' - are a component of Israeli policy designed to permanently take over the occupied territories of Palestine and drive out the indigenous population (an extension of the ethnic cleansing that has been going on since 1947). Note the strategic placement of settements throughout the West Bank.

Closing the net (July 2003).
Map showing progress of ethnic cleansing of Israeli-occupied West Bank. Note how illegal Israeli occupation, settlements and the wall have partitioned West Bank Palestinians into fragments of their lands. Israeli construction of 'separation barriers' or 'security fences' (shown above) aims to separate Palestinians from their jobs and land. Note that the latest partitions exclude Palestinians from approximately 53% of occupied West Bank. Note also how the wall, which Israel says is designed to keep Arab attackers out of Israel, is in fact constructed almost entirely within West Bank and bears little relation to the Green Line, the only recognized legal border between Palestine and Israel. By partitioning off large sections of West Bank from Palestinians and enclosing some Arab towns into virtual concentration camps, the wall complements the strategic placement of illegal settlements and aids in taking over West bank for incorporation into a 'Greater Israel'. Israeli forces and paramilitary settlers currently control all of West Bank and use deadly force to eliminate any sign of resistance to their occupation.

Ronald De Hommel photo
MORE MAPS AND SATELLITE IMAGERY OF THE WALL
Israeli wall illegal - International Court of Justice (July 9, 2004)
The International Court of Justice has ruled that Israel's West Bank barrier is illegal and construction of it should be stopped immediately. The ruling said the barrier's construction was "tantamount to annexation" and impeded the Palestinian right to self-determination.
Israeli wall illegal (Amnesty International, February 19, 2004)
Amnesty International believes that the construction by Israel of the fence/wall inside the Occupied Territories violates international law and is contributing to grave human rights violations.
Israel redraws the roadmap, building quietly and quickly (Guardian, October 18, 2005)
"Jewish settlements during the first quarter of this year rose by 83% on the same period in 2004. About 4,000 homes are under construction in Israel's West Bank colonies, with thousands more homes approved in the Ariel and Maale Adumim blocks that penetrate deep into the occupied territories. The total number of settlers has risen again this year with an estimated 14,000 moving to the West Bank"

The Gaza strip - part of Palestine where Israeli forces routinely and indiscriminantly kill Arab civilians, demolish their homes, and brutally eliminate any sign of resistance to occupation. Illegal Israeli 'settlements' in Gaza strip shown in orange.
More links of interest:
Full text of letter from 50 retired US diplomats urging President Bush to reverse his Middle East policy (BBC, May 4, 2004)
"We are deeply concerned by your April 14 endorsement of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's unilateral plan to reject the rights of three million Palestinians, to deny the right of refugees to return to their homeland, and to retain five large illegal settlement blocs in the occupied West Bank. You have placed US diplomats, civilians and military doing their jobs overseas in an untenable and even dangerous position. It ignores international laws declaring Israeli settlements illegal. It flouts UN Resolution 194, passed in 1948, which affirms the right of refugees to return to their homes or receive compensation for the loss of their property and assistance in resettling in a host country should they choose to do so. Your unqualified support of Sharon's extra-judicial assassinations, Israel's Berlin Wall-like barrier, its harsh military measures in occupied territories, and now your endorsement of Sharon's unilateral plan are costing our country its credibility, prestige and friends."
Full text of letter sent by 50 former British ambassadors to Tony Blair, urging him either to influence US policy in the Middle East or to stop backing it. (BBC, May 4, 2004)
"We the undersigned former British ambassadors, high commissioners, governors and senior international officials, including some who have long experience of the Middle East and others whose experience is elsewhere, have watched with deepening concern the policies which you have followed on the Arab-Israel problem and Iraq, in close co-operation with the United States. The international community has now been confronted with the announcement by Ariel Sharon and President Bush of new policies which are one-sided and illegal and which will cost yet more Israeli and Palestinian blood. Our dismay at this backward step is heightened by the fact that you yourself seem to have endorsed it, abandoning the principles which for nearly four decades have guided international efforts to restore peace in the Holy Land and which have been the basis for such successes as those efforts have produced. This abandonment of principle comes at a time when rightly or wrongly we are portrayed throughout the Arab and Muslim world as partners in an illegal and brutal occupation in Iraq."
Edward Said's writings
"Every major West Bank and Gaza area is occupied by Israeli troops who routinely kill and/or detain Palestinians on the grounds that they are "suspected" terrorists and militants; similarly, houses and shops are often demolished with the excuse that they shelter bomb factories, terrorist cells, and militant meeting places. No proof is given, none asked for by reporters who accept the unilateral Israeli designation without a murmur."
Palestinian-American academic Edward Said died September 25,2003 in New York after a long battle with cancer. He was 67.
Noam Chomsky on the United States and Israel
"Palestinians have been trying to survive under Israeli military occupation, now in its 35th year. It has been harsh and brutal throughout, thanks to decisive US military and economic support, and diplomatic protection, including the barring of the long-standing international consensus on a peaceful political settlement. "
Desmond Tutu on apartheid in the holy land
"Israel will never get true security and safety through oppressing another people. A true peace can ultimately be built only on justice."
International Committee of the Red Cross slams Israeli wall (BBC, February 18, 2004)
"The International Committee of the Red Cross has condemned Israel's building of a barrier in the West Bank as "contrary" to international law. The aid agency said the barrier, whose proposed route cuts into Palestinian areas, went "far beyond what is permissible for an occupying power""
Israeli cabinet approves next phase of 'security barrier' it is building in the West Bank (BBC, October 2, 2003)
"The new fence will not be immediately connected to the barrier built so far, as a concession to Israel's main ally, the US. However, sections will be built around several Jewish settlements in the heart of the West Bank. The Israeli cabinet decision comes a day after a United Nations report condemned the barrier as illegal and tantamount to "an unlawful act of annexation"."

Revenge
"Hanadi Tayseer Jaradat, who killed 19 people in an attack on a Haifa restaurant on Saturday, was the fifth woman to carry out such an attack since the current intifada began. Jaradat's younger brother Fadi, a 25-year-old Islamic Jihad militant, and their similarly militant older cousin, 34-year-old Salah - were killed by Israeli forces in a raid on Jenin in June."
Intifada toll Sept 2000 - Sept 2005
"The five years of the Palestinian intifada have cost more than 4,000 lives. Btselem, an Israeli human rights group, has been tracking casualty figures on both sides: 3,218 Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces in the West Bank and Gaza including 657 aged under 18, 187 killed in extrajudicial executions and 296 (including at least 29 aged under 18) killed in the course of assassination operations; 444 Israeli civilians killed by Palestinians in Israel including 80 aged under 18."
What is anti-semitism? by Michael Neumann, Trent University Professor (Counterpunch, June 4, 2002)
"Inflating the meaning of 'antisemitism' to include anything politically damaging to Israel is a double-edged sword. It may be handy for smiting your enemies, but the problem is that definitional inflation, like any inflation, cheapens the currency. The more things get to count as antisemitic, the less awful antisemitism is going to sound."
EU poll: "Israel poses biggest threat to world peace"
"A Flash Eurobarometer survey carried out in October 2003 for the European Commission in the fifteen member states of the EU found that nearly 60 percent of European citizens believe Israel poses the biggest threat to world peace. Iran is considered the second biggest threat, North Korea the third and the United States the fourth. Taking a look at the results, the one socio-demographic characteristic that stands out is education -- the more highly educated respondents (66%) are more likely to perceive Israel as a threat to world peace than those who ceased their studies at an earlier stage (16-20: 59% and 15 and younger: 50%). "
Viewpoints: Anti-Semitism and Europe
"Is anti-Semitism really increasing? Is hostility towards Israeli policy in the Middle East becoming anti-Jewish? BBC News Online asked 12 experts on Jewish affairs from Europe and Israel to reflect on the charge."
Amnesty International on Palestine
Their report, Israel and the Occupied Territories: Shielded from Scrutiny - IDF violations in Jenin and Nablus, documents serious human rights violations by Israeli forces -- "unlawful killings; torture and ill-treatment of prisoners; wanton destruction of hundreds of homes sometimes with the residents still inside; the blocking of ambulances and denial of humanitarian assistance; and the use of Palestinian civilians as 'human shields'".
Human Rights Watch on Palestine
"The (IDF) abuses we documented in Jenin are extremely serious, and in some cases appear to be war crimes. Criminal investigations are needed to ascertain individual responsibility for the most serious violations..."

Hebron, Palestine - October 3, 2002

Rachel Corrie
American peace activist murdered by Israeli forces in Gaza strip
U.S Financial Aid To Israel: Figures, Facts, and Impact Summary
Total U.S. aid to Israel is approximately one-third of the American foreign-aid budget, even though Israel comprises just .001 percent of the world's population and already has one of the world's higher per capita incomes.
more neglected information on the occupation can be found at (click to go there):http://www.palestineremembered.com/
http://electronicintifada.net/
a negative Canadian connection?
The site of the Palestinian town of 'Imwas, bulldozed and dynamited soon after its inhabitants were driven off at gunpoint or killed by invading Israeli soldiers in 1967, is now called the 'Canada Recreation Park' (click on photo below to link)


Sources:
1. The Globe and Mail
2. Harper's Magazine
3. The Christian Science Monitor
4. Peace Now
5. Palestine Remembered
Last updated: September 30, 2005 This page is maintained by Ian Jones (ijones 'at sign'www.mun.ca )http://groups.google.com/group/ZIONI...gal-occupation
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From:
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Re: Nakba 61 Years on: A Two-state solution…Successful?
Posted:
May 11, 2009 11:42 AM
in response to:
RagbTAR
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We will BOTH laugh Maryam.....many years from now when peace comes and I'm sitting with you in a coffee house in Cairo together with Songyang, Yackety, AMGI and, yes, even Kirilova... and we look back on the terrible things we used to say to each other on the forum and wonder how we could have wasted the precious life that G-d gave us by hating each other and fighting instead of exchanging views like normal human beings. I have said that you're my enemy but that really wasn't fair of me to do so. I know that you've been conditioned to hate me and my country for so many years you don't know any other way to deal with me - I understand that and I know that one day things will be different.
Message was edited by: Elaine_from_Israel
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Re: Nakba 61 Years on: A Two-state solution…Successful?
Posted:
May 11, 2009 3:39 PM
in response to:
Elaine_from_Isr...
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Even if I was invited(which I am not) I would not go if that guy Yacketyyack is going. The little trouble maker. Always bothering my friend AMGI (aka-patroit)( and upsetting the whole room.).
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Re: Nakba 61 Years on: A Two-state solution…Successful?
Posted:
May 12, 2009 12:19 AM
in response to:
cyberers
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Yeah even Dstoke would not join in if that guy 'Yackers' is going.
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Re: Nakba 61 Years on: A Two-state solution…Successful?
Posted:
May 12, 2009 12:03 PM
in response to:
Maryam95
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Maybe we can dig some new tunnels to Palestine. I will bring a pick axe and a shovel. I will let you do the talking, if we get caught or questioned along the way. Maybe Hindii can help us. Shhhhh.. Don't tell Elaine she may report us.
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From:
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Re: Nakba 61 Years on: A Two-state solution…Successful?
Posted:
May 12, 2009 6:12 AM
in response to:
RagbTAR
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......awww I'm so sorry Cyberers - I didn't mean to leave anyone out...of course you're invited too.
Tell you what.....when peace comes we'll have a big party to celebrate and the entire forum will be invited to take part! How does that sound?
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694
From:
International World Citizen
Registered:
10/7/07
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Re: Nakba 61 Years on: A Two-state solution…Successful?
Posted:
May 12, 2009 8:43 AM
in response to:
Elaine_from_Isr...
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If this here proposed party is managed by Jews, will non-Jews (Goyim—translation: cattle) attendees be charged a $100 coverage fee & will it cost an them additional $40 for each bagel & will the Goyim-cattle get a body-search for missing silverware upon departure?
Will they shoot you if the menorah is found missing? :I
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Re: Nakba 61 Years on: A Two-state solution…Successful?
Posted:
May 13, 2009 3:14 AM
in response to:
RagbTAR
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Actually Maryam I think that once we sat down and started talking you wouldn't want me to leave so quickly. I have a great sense of humour and I could tell you some great stories and I know that I'd love to hear your stories too. I can almost guarantee that we'd have a great time. As for an entrance fee or cover charge - I think it would be a great idea to charge an entrance fee which would go to children's charities in Israel and in all the Arab countries who attend. This cause in itself is justification for such a party - this way we'd all get to know each other AND help children in need at the same time.
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Re: Nakba 61 Years on: A Two-state solution…Successful?
Posted:
May 13, 2009 11:08 AM
in response to:
Elaine_from_Isr...
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(Watch out Maryam, I think she likes you )
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243
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Re: Nakba 61 Years on: A Two-state solution…Successful?
Posted:
May 14, 2009 3:02 AM
in response to:
RagbTAR
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I like you too Yackety.....now you're REALLY in trouble!.....
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Re: Nakba 61 Years on: A Two-state solution…Successful?
Posted:
May 14, 2009 10:03 AM
in response to:
RagbTAR
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Although Palestine; 'a wound still bleeding'; Palestinians will never give up fighting for their rights. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Rt0eu1xlx4 And if anyone to put himself in their position, he will never bear what they do. It's the strength of their spirits, determined to take charge of their destinies. They will never ratify Israel's or the world's lies and illusions/conventions. .
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