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Thread: Credit Crunch.. Where Did Money Go?
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Replies:
32
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Last Post:
Oct 29, 2008 7:56 PM
by: iec
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Posts:
3,174
From:
SA
Registered:
4/13/02
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Credit Crunch.. Where Did Money Go?
Posted:
Oct 13, 2008 12:54 AM
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Trillions in stock market value — gone. Trillions in retirement savings — gone. A huge chunk of the money you paid for your house, the money you're saving for college, the money your boss needs to make payroll — gone, gone, gone.
Whether you're a stock broker or Joe Six-pack, if you have a 401(k), a mutual fund or a college savings plan, tumbling stock markets and sagging home prices mean you've lost a whole lot of the money that was right there on your account statements just a few months ago.
Trillions Disappear in Stock Market, but Where Did Money Go?
Message was edited by:
Moderators
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Posts:
526
Registered:
3/8/08
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Re: Credit Crunch.. Where Did Money Go?
Posted:
Oct 13, 2008 3:39 PM
in response to:
iec
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I read some reports citing that senior Jewish officials at the Lehman Brothers investment bank passed their clients' money on to three Israeli banks, with the intention of then escaping to Israel to enjoy the take without fear of extradition.
I don't know if these reports are that accurate but I can't downplay these reports 'cause it seem have a credibility somehow, they are talking about a debt of 639$ Billion, if the reports are true and 400$ Billion illegally transferred to Israel, so jews are a major element in the current global credit crisis now!
you can check the links here http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aH6Cz4OKDh.U
http://tbrnews.org/Archives/a2880.htm.. What do you think about this theory?
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Posts:
38
Registered:
10/10/08
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Re: Credit Crunch.. Where Did Money Go?
Posted:
Oct 13, 2008 6:04 PM
in response to:
iec
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1 link works, but says nothing about jews stealing money, the second one doesn't work. I've heard 1 or 2 people say "THE JEWS STOLE YOUR MONEY!!!" but I haven't seen a shred of proof.
The "money" that was lost wasn't all cash, it was mostly equity and market capitalization. People may have had $100,000 in their retirement plan, but it wasn't $100,000 in cash, it was shares that hypothetically could be sold on the open market for $100,000, providing someone else was willing to buy it. However when companies started going bankrupt, those shares became worthless, because no one is going to buy shares of a company that went out of business. All those shares went from hypothetically being worth trillions to being worth nothing.
Obviously when companies issue new equity, they raise cash from it, but that money is used in the operations of the company to pay the bills, and probably got spent on operations and huge executive bonuses. Plus when companies started losing their lines of credit, they used whatever cash they had left to try and keep up with their debt repayment schedule.
Anyone who thinks "trillions were lost... therefore trillions were stolen" clearly doesn't understand how stock markets work
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Posts:
662
Registered:
11/27/06
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Re: Credit Crunch.. Where Did Money Go?
Posted:
Oct 14, 2008 10:27 PM
in response to:
iec
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The Muslim World Must Free Itself from this Failing Capitalist System
The historic events of the past few weeks cannot be overstated. Even the
IMF has come to terms that the western financial system is on the brink
of meltdown. The economic fallout is predicted to be huge, with recession
likely to hit major western economies. The extent of the inevitable political
fallout is hard to predict as the USA, the world’s only superpower, is teetering
on the edge of bankruptcy.
Many view the USA as the world's new ‘sick man’.
But global markets and economies are so intertwined if this ‘sick man’ falls,
many states could be crushed beneath. At this time of crisis, The Muslim
world has a huge opportunity and responsibility.
For as leaders in the west flounder for solutions to this crisis in Capitalism –
a crisis that was as inevitable as night follows day, due to inherent flaws in the
system – Islam has real solutions in this field that would prevent the seismic
shocks this inherently unstable free market will always produce with its cyclical
boom and bust. So what are some of the key problems and how does Islam’s
system contrast:
_
1. Unrestrained credit creation because of the interest based economy.
An interest based system means that banks will always seek
to maximize profits from lending. In doing so, they have lent
more than they possess in assets by an enormous scale.
There has been no effective regulation or restraint on the
system and this model reaped huge profits. However, the knock-on effects on
the rest of the economy are set to be colossal – on businesses, individuals who
are set to lose their jobs and on the taxpayer who has effectively absorbed the
risk whilst bankers have made the profits.
The Islamic system prohibits the giving or taking of interest payments, so naturally
avoids the get rich quick schemes from lending. Investment of wealth is in the real
economy where sharing of risks and rewards is between business partners without
banking middle men who control the flow of credit to their advantage.
2. Paper based currencies.
In the free market model money is -not- backed by any commodity.
**************
Governments bail themselves out of debt by simply printing more money or extending
credit lines. We have seen the inflationary effects of this in an exponential rise in fuel
and food prices this year – leaving people in poor countries on the brink of starvation.
The fragile nature of these paper based currencies was exposed in the late 1990’s with
currencies collapsing in South East Asian due to market speculation. Currently, the
US is massively in debt (<10 trillion dollars). The US will ultimately pay much less
(to their creditors like China, Japan, etc) when the dollar depreciates further (as it
has been) through their accelerated printing. But the cost of this falls back on the
ordinary citizens – through greater taxes, cuts in social/health service spending and
a rise in the cost of living that is the result of printing more money.
The Islamic system has a stable and real currency based on gold and silver standard
which cannot be created by the state treasury out of thin air. This means that money
has a real value behind them and forces people to live within their means. They cannot
artificially create wealth for a few, ultimately creating misery for the many.
3. Financial services industry is out of control and is effectively a gambling market.
The derivatives industry is not the real economy but betting or ‘hedging’ on how
markets/measures of the real economy will move. This market is “estimated” at 600
to 1,000 trillion dollars and is 10-20 times larger than the real global economy at $50
trillion. The counterparty risks (other side of the contract) are so large and widespread
now that many banks, pension funds, investment funds, hedge funds and even countries
(Iceland for example) could collapse. The domino effect of these failures will be massive
and has the potential to bring the whole economy down – it will likely be too large for
many governments to cope with.
The Islamic system has a clear regulation of company law,
anti-gambling legislation,
prohibits short-selling and non-futures contracts,
and specific laws regulating the sale/purchase of commodities and currencies.
Islam has clear financial contract laws controlling all of these excesses which are
predictable and preventable.
*
4. The Free Market!
Capitalism now stands on the brink. Economies, staggering from crisis to crisis, now
require massive state intervention and nationalisation. This runs completely counter to
their very own principles. Their notion of the “free market” has been exposed as a lie,
and has failed. The official response - a promise of new and better regulation – has
an appalling track record of dealing with underlying problems (where has Sarbanes-Oxley
(SOX) post Enron era helped in the current crisis?). It is also contradictory to the
“free market” philosophy. Regulation merely presents a challenge for traders to look for
loopholes to run legitimate trade, but by the same rules that produce the crisis we are
currently witnessing.
The Islamic system has a system of ruling and economy which is transparent, stable
and has a track record of consistent success over several centuries. Rulers are subject
to the law and do not invent new laws at the first crisis. When a system is so fragile that
it needs constant amendment what does that say about the system?
******************************
It could be said that the Islamic system provides the only truly **stable** free market.
The fixed laws of regulation cannot be changed by a whim and powerful lobbies –
and people can invest and trade in a market freely within those rules.
******************************
So where are the Muslims today? Islam has the solutions to this crisis, yet it is nowhere
to be seen in the Muslim world. We sit idly by and watch the world economy fail with
untold misery to a large percentage of the world population. Furthermore, regimes in the
Muslim world - who have invested heavily in propping up this failed system, at the expense
of their own population – may see their economies crushed under the falling ‘sick-man’
of the United States.
Our countries and their corrupt regimes are part of the problem and if anything are
helping to try and prop up the failing system (sovereign wealth funds, bank bailouts, and
even having their currencies pegged to the US$). Many non-Muslims will be shaken to
the very core by this crisis; they have never experienced anything like it. They are
interested in alternatives and we must be there to present the only alternative.
It is time for the Muslim world to liberate itself from this failed system, establish the
Caliphate (al-Khilafah) and a model market that others will see, Insha’Allah, provides an
inherently more stable and just system, not pandering and fuelling the greed of human
nature, coupled with the responsibility to help the poorest in society such that wealth does
not remain the monopoly of a few.
www.hizb.org.uk
Allah knows best
Dear brother, please do not put all those stars(*****) and dashes(_____) in your posts as they widen the page. Thank you.
[Edited by: moderator on Oct 15, 2008 5:46 AM]
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Posts:
38
Registered:
10/10/08
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Re: Credit Crunch.. Where Did Money Go?
Posted:
Oct 14, 2008 11:09 PM
in response to:
Saladin
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The Islamic system has a stable and real currency based on gold and silver standard
Where did you come up with this? Even Dr. Monzer Khaf, an expert here at IOL in Islamic Economics has clearly stated that the idea of a metal based currency in the 21st century is impractical and unworkable.
http://www.islamonline.net/livedialogue/english/Browse.asp?hGuestID=VeCtpd
(See his answer to question number 1)
where has Sarbanes-Oxley
(SOX) post Enron era helped in the current crisis?"
SOX is regulations relating to reporting of financial statements, it has nothing to do with risk management of investments.
I think you are right on some points that there are advantages to an Islamic banking system. But you present it as if modern capitalism and islamic banking are completely irreconcilable and different in every possible way, which is not true.
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Posts:
705
From:
International World Citizen
Registered:
10/7/07
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Re: Credit Crunch.. Where Did Money Go?
Posted:
Oct 15, 2008 7:34 AM
in response to:
Gravy
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When currencies diverted from being backed by precious metals and became dependent on commodities and manufacturing potential it took a risky path. At the time the US was the leading exporter of white goods and the idea of just printing money to reflect the situation (of potential) was sustainable only as long as this advantage held true.
When by conglomerates ever greedy for bigger profits started to export jobs to poorer countries, by exploiting cheaper labor, and investing in overseas factories, this concept became less and less sustainable. As China/Japan/Korea eventually emerged as white-goods and textile supremos, the transfer of this manufacturing and exporting concept of wealth potential became more and more imbalanced, and the so-called first world lost the advantage of ‘potential wealth’.
Now with such unsustainable deficits owed to the emerging nations from unbalanced trading (buying more goods than personally manufacturing, and with a population living on credit) it became anathema. It’s ended up with China now owning trillions of dollars worth of US bonds that will take generations of Americans to pay off. Conducting unwinable wars exacerbated the situation.
It’s estimated that if the US sold off every building and every plot of real estate in the USA, it would need 2 times that amount yet again to pay off the debt, due to foolish US leaders..
How money really works & how it is manipulated by evil Jewish Bankers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS2ZiDjZsF0
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Posts:
3,174
From:
SA
Registered:
4/13/02
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Re: Credit Crunch.. Where Did Money Go?
Posted:
Oct 15, 2008 12:33 PM
in response to:
Mustaf_Asay
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How money really works & how it is manipulated by evil Jewish Bankers:
You know many people on this forum think that the Muslims keep blaming the Zionist Jew for their the problems in the respective country's.
If we take South Africa for example,after the ANC took over the country we said hooray we now have DEMOCRACY little did we know that the finance and the economy remained in the hands of the white minority.
The Gold mines belong to Harry Openheimer who is a zionist Jew.The Diamond mines belong to De Beer,s another Zionist Jew,then we have the banking system in the hands of the Jewish bankers.My goodness these people rule my country without us knowing what is happening in our own backyard.
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Posts:
38
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10/10/08
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Re: Credit Crunch.. Where Did Money Go?
Posted:
Oct 15, 2008 9:12 PM
in response to:
Mustaf_Asay
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How money really works & how it is manipulated by evil Jewish Bankers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS2ZiDjZsF0 S Subhanullah! You accuse everyone of conspiring against Islam, and as proof you present that youtube video from Rod Parsely who has publicly declared war on islam and gone as far as to say "Allah was a demon spirit" and accusing Mohammed (SAW) of "being led by demons." This man is John McCain's "spiritual advisor" who is trying to get him to wage war on the Muslim world. You should be 10x as worried about what this guy wants to do to muslims around the world than about a silent zionist conspiracy. http://www.motherjones.com/washington_dispatch/2008/03/john-mccain-rod-parsley-spiritual-guide.html It is pretty well accepted that part of the financial crisis is the irresponsibility of the American Treasury in printing money to cover its debts which does not make sense. It's not prudent fiscal policy, but at this does not necessarily require the return to gold backed currency. I think thats an extreme reactio to the situation. Arguably this economic meltdown can be seen as the market correcting itself, therefore the need for outside intervention in such an extreme way is unwarranted.
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Posts:
705
From:
International World Citizen
Registered:
10/7/07
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Re: Credit Crunch.. Where Did Money Go?
Posted:
Oct 16, 2008 6:22 AM
in response to:
Gravy
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Thank you, I have taken note of the man’s name, which I was under the impression was Ron Paul just going from the title of the video, and do agree after watching other videos this persona made, that his views on other subjects are reprehensible. Nevertheless his explanations regarding money that are given in the video are pertinent and factual.
Perhaps the real Ron Paul interviewed here is the one I should have posted as an example. Incidentally the Aussie dollar is based on gold bullion and therefore has made possible for our government last week to fully guarantee that all deposits in our own banks are safe for at least 3 years ahead. WE still possess large deposits of the precious ore, and until his demise my father was part owner of a gold mining company for which I retain many shares. Gold has risen from the $737 per ounce not long ago to its present value fluctuating around $1,030 and is expected to reach $2,000 per ounce in the probability that the American economy collapses early next year as anticipated.
No amount of injection of printed paper is going to fix the immense problem of being able to sustain multi trillions of dollars of international debt for America, but will merely delay the inevitable. One cannot keep borrowing money based on promissory notes. It’s like pouring more & more water into a bucket without first fixing the huge hole in the bottom.
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Posts:
11
Registered:
10/12/08
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Re: Credit Crunch.. Where Did Money Go?
Posted:
Oct 16, 2008 2:38 PM
in response to:
Mustaf_Asay
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You're loaded, want to place a wager on the total collapse of the US economy next year? I got any amount that says it will never happen.
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Posts:
705
From:
International World Citizen
Registered:
10/7/07
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Re: Credit Crunch.. Where Did Money Go?
Posted:
Oct 16, 2008 3:36 PM
in response to:
thepatriotreturns
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Loaded? Hardly. The old man was quite prolific and with so many descendents to sooth, by the time it came down to me there was hardly a billion to pass on :-((
Merely comfortable old chap, but only due to not being a gambler, especially because the credit crunch may arrive even sooner than next year if the Palin/McCain cabal wins the toss.
However if one sees a blind man about to walk into a hole in the road, it is one’s duty to guide him around it. Doing so may prevent him falling into the hole, but the hole remains there until someone fixes it.
Not that I wouldn’t mind some of the $700 billion of US worker’s and their children’s future sweat that’s being doled out to the bankers though 
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38
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10/10/08
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Re: Credit Crunch.. Where Did Money Go?
Posted:
Oct 16, 2008 9:24 PM
in response to:
Mustaf_Asay
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No amount of injection of printed paper is going to fix the immense problem of being able to sustain multi trillions of dollars of international debt for America, but will merely delay the inevitable. One cannot keep borrowing money based on promissory notes. It’s like pouring more & more water into a bucket without first fixing the huge hole in the bottom. Well I think we can all agree on this as a starting point. 
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Posts:
662
Registered:
11/27/06
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Re: Credit Crunch.. Where Did Money Go?
Posted:
Oct 15, 2008 11:46 PM
in response to:
iec
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Bismillirahmaaniraheem
(In the name of God, the Lovingly Merciful, the Most Gracious)
"Building bridges"
It took me 4 hours to write this. Please take a few minutes to read / think about this.
My intention is not to attack or ridicule anyone. I provide this as a social service
to help build bridges between people of different ideologies.
Summary:
----------------------
What is ISLAM's END-GAME?
------------------------
Short answer: UPGRADE the human race
Long answer:
imagine a Pyramid of systems , the GOOD, the BAD and the UGLY
▲
1 Islam
2 Capitalism 2.0
3 Capitalism 1.0 - secular liberal democratic
4 Communism
5 Feudalism / Religious government (exculsively Christian, Hindu, Jewish states)
Note:
**********************
Capitalism 2.0 is a metaphor.
Internet 1.0 was slow, narrowband, with speeds of 5k per second or less, text not video
Internet 2.0 is Fast, Broadband, with speeds of 1000k per second plus. Video, Multimedia etc
********************
so now in reverse order, bad to good....
-----------------
5 Feudalism
-----------------
Bad: In 5th place at the bottom, we have a feudal society.
Bad: Social mobility is non-existent.
Bad: Religious tolerance is non-existent. "You either follow my religion or die" (totally un-Islamic)
Bad: Industry is primitive.
Bad: Banking is non-existent. You have to physically move your gold.
Bad: Healthcare is primitive.
Bad: Most people live on farms.
Bad: The village 'chief' is the Law.
Bad: Most people are illiterate.
Bad: Women are treated like animals.
Bad: Class / Caste / tribe is the main identity
Bad: Monarchy is common
_________________________________
Summary: a thoroughly backward system - un-Islamic
Grade: 'G' - FAIL
_________________________________
-------------------
4 Communism
-------------------
Bad: In 4th place is Communism
Bad: Social mobility exists but since everyone gets paid the same, opportunities are limited
Bad: Religious tolerance is still non-existent. "You either follow my Communism or die"
Average: Industry has moved to the next level via the Industrial Revolution. Cars, airplanes etc
Bad: Banking is limited since private property is non-existent. You cannot even own your own car.
Good: Healthcare is massively improved. In some cases even better than a Capitalist system (Cuba)
Average: People may still live on farms, but because of the Industrial Revolution, cities become important
Bad: The Communist Party 'official' is the Law.
Good: Most people can read (literacy is as high as 95% in some cases) - better than Capitalist states
Average: Women can get jobs, but like men they cannot own private property
Bad: Class is the main identity
Bad: The King is replaced with a "Chairman". Still a dictator (although not meant to be).
Summary: a backward system - un-Islamic - some improvements over Feudalism but not a good system
Grade: 'F' - FAIL
3 Capitalism 1.0 - secular liberal democratic
-----------------------
Average: In 3th place is Capitalism 1.0 (what we have now)
Good: Social mobility exists for many people. If you work hard and are smart/lucky you can make it
Average: Religious tolerance is improved but only domestically. "You either practice my Secularism or die"
Good: Industry is at the next level. Private Ownership means people have an incentive to work harder.
Average: Banking is available for the masses. It is unstable and prone to crashes but still works - for now
Average: Healthcare is good, but not as good as in Communist system (compare: USA and Cuba)
Good: Most people live in cities. Job opportunities are good (until the 1990s). Many/most are middle-class.
Average: Democracy means people have some political voice. Not much, but more than Communism
Good: Most people can read - but as in Communism people are discouraged to "Think". 'Just enjoy life'
Good: Women can get jobs, own private property. Unfortunately there is still the "glass ceiling" for many.
Bad: Class is not as important. However tribalism / racism is similar to feudal levels. Primitive.
Bad: The King is replaced by a President/PM or "Decider" who tortures people and is a tyrant abroad.
Summary: a much better system than Communism - un-Islamic - spoiled by defects like Imperialism
Grade: 'E' - FAIL - would have got a better mark but let down by routine Imperialism and torture
_____________________________________
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2 Capitalism 2.0 - A superior Capitalism - almost identical to Islam
-----------------------
Good: In 2nd place is Capitalism 2.0 (theoretical only)
Good: Social mobility exists for nearly everone. Jobs are plentiful and most are on permanent contracts
Good: Religious tolerace is good. "You practice your religion - i won't impose my secular thoughts on you"
Good: Industry has moved on. The focus is on technology benefitting people instead of killing people.
Good: Banking is based on Gold. The economy is stable. Equity increasingly replaces Interest.
Good: Healthcare is excellent for all. Free at the point of delivery. Cancer is cured.
Good: Most people live in cities. Most are middle class and prosperous. Work-life balance is good.
Good: Political accountibility is real. Judges are actually independent. The Media is not propaganda.
Excellent: Every single person can read. Thinking is encouraged. An Ideas (not pleasure) based society.
Excellent: Women can get jobs or choose to look after their children. No pressure. No pornography.
Good: Class, tribe, race is irrelevant. Racism is history.
Average: The leader cannot make any law he likes. People stop him if he tries to pass a "patriot act"
Summary: Now we are starting to get "civilised" - not as good as Islam but nearly identical
Grade: C+ / B- PASS - good but could do better
1 Islam <----------- (as applied in totality on a State level, in other words the Khilafah State)
-----------------
Excellent: In 1st place is Islam (Islamic Khilafah State)
Excellent: Social mobility exists for every single person. Opportunities for advancement exist for everone.
Excellent: Religious tolerance is examplary. No other society on earth has the harmony of the Islamic system.**
Excellent: Industry goes into overdrive. Islam unlocks millions of minds, with free university education using oil to start.
Excellent: Banking: 'Equity' not interest is basis of business. Gold Standard kills inflation. Economy is rock solid.
Excellent: Healthcare is at the next level. Free for all people. Muslims offer free healthcare to poor/sick people globally.
Excellent: People live in green leafy cities. Nearly all are middle class and wealthy. Work-life balance is excellent
Excellent: Accountability, elections, justice, are 'real' not just lip service. Crime is near zero. Media reports "news". ***
Excellent: Every single person can read and most can "think" (outside the box). An ideological / ideas based society.
Excellent: Motherhood is honored. Working women are respected for their work not looks. Old women are respected.
Excellent: Islam creates a society where Muslims, Christians, Jews, Atheists, etc are moulded into ONE people. ****
Excellent: Shariah Law limits State Power. Laws -cannot- be changed by the powerful men. Rights are protected.
Excellent: Spiritual values are more important than Money. Human beings are valued as people, not statistics.
Excellent: A nation that fasts one month every years knows the pain of hunger. Poverty is eliminated globally using oil.
Excellent: Income tax / VAT is abolished. A progressive 'un-invested wealth' tax is used. People spend more = more jobs.
Excellent: Islam invented banks. We never had a banking crisis in 1400 years. Islam is stable and built to last. God made.
___________________________________
Summary: "Civilisation" "Islam" "Its what God intended for human beings" "The Truth"
Grade: A+++ PASS WITH DISTINCTION
_________________________________
** Historical records show Islam had the most tolerant harmonious society - even our enemies acknowledge this
*** Places like Dubai and Saudi Arabia which apply even 1% of Islam have a nearly zero crime rate. People feel safe.
**** Compare with Islamic Spain
---------------
The Future
---------------
Bismark (I think that's his name) realised in the 1870s that Capitalists would have to give people in the West more
rights or else Capitalism would face serious pressure from Communism.
The competition with Communism led to:
* Pensions
* National Health Services
* Welfare for the unemployed - and life-long job security
* Education for the poor
etc
With the demise of Communism these things are beginning to be rolled back in the West.
Similarly Capitalism is beginning to face competition from Islam ideologically.
To compete the Capitalists will have to move to
Capitalism 2.0 (i.e. a more Stable, Gold-Based, Equity-Based, Tolerant, Islamic-like system)
It should lead to:
* Pensions (re-linked to real earnings - again)
* National Health Services - (Un-privatised - except for some out-sourced peripheral services)
* Gold Standard Currency
* Contracts where the risks and returns are shared, a move away from Interest based economics
etc
The Capitalists / Neo-Cons are right to want to move the world away from Communism / Feudalism.
However Capitalism 1.0 is dying.
It is not stable.
Gloablly it is a disaster for billions of people.
Capitalism is not all bad.
But why settle for Communism when you can have Capitalism 1.0 ?
and why settle for Capitalism 1.0 when you can have Capitalism 2.0 ?
and why settle for Capitalism 2.0 when you can have Islam ?
*******************************
Why have bronze or silver when you can have gold ?
*******************************
********************************
The Capitalist 1.0 enthusiasts are like Internet 1.0 enthusiasts.
They are (inadvertantly) keeping the system back.
*********************************
I think in the medium term the world needs new thinking.
Perhaps the metaphor of Capitalism 2.0 will be that bridge.
********************************
"All the strengths of Capitalism without any of its weaknesses"
**********************************
However, for the Muslim world, we should bypass, metaphorical Capitalism 2.0
and adopt Islam (almost Capitalism 3.0) - perhaps this stretches the metaphor a bit.
*********************************
The aim of attacking Capitalism 1.0 (the current system) like attacking Internet 1.0
is not to deny people the use of the internet. But it is to UPGRADE the people to broadband.
Similarly the aim of attacking Capitalism is to upgrade it to Capitalism 2.0
and in the far future possibly Islam (like a super-duper broadband internet 3.0....
1,000,000k per second download speeds?)
We Muslims can go directly to Islam - as a State.
Perhaps the West will need to move to an intermediate ideological metaphor.
It will have to do something new to compete with the Gold Standard, Equity Based, Just, Islamic
System i have outlined above.
Islam is the only (remaining) "stable" free-market ideology
If you don't like the word Islam, try Capitalism 2.0
It is (nearly) the same thing.
But Capitalism 2.0 is only a metaphor.
***********************************
Where as Islam is a 1400 year old rock-solid,
gold-based, free market ideology (with 10% 'religion')
Conclusion:
------------------------------------------
so what is ISLAM's END-GAME?
------------------------------------------
Short answer: UPGRADE the human race
God knows best
Message was edited by:
Saladin
To Moderators:
Apologies for the formatting *** stars and dashes
I need the stars because i cannot enable BOLD type.
I will use less stars so the page stays the same size
insha'Allah
[Edited by: moderator on Oct 16, 2008 5:10 AM]
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38
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Re: Credit Crunch.. Where Did Money Go?
Posted:
Oct 17, 2008 8:35 PM
in response to:
Saladin
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I fear your message is lost in the sheer length of your post.
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Posts:
50
Registered:
10/17/08
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Re: Credit Crunch.. Where Did Money Go?
Posted:
Oct 17, 2008 8:52 PM
in response to:
Saladin
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Quote: Saladin (with minor editing) Bismillirahmaaniraheem
(In the name of God, the Lovingly Merciful, the Most Gracious)
"Building bridges"
It took me 4 hours to write this. Please take a few minutes to read / think about this. My intention is not to attack or ridicule anyone. I provide this as a social service to help build bridges between people of different ideologies.
Summary:
WHAT IS ISLAM'S END-GAME?
Short answer: UPGRADE the human race
Long answer: imagine a Pyramid of systems , the GOOD, the BAD and the UGLY: 
1 Islam
2 Capitalism 2.0
3 Capitalism 1.0 - secular liberal democratic
4 Communism
5 Feudalism / Religious government (exculsively Christian, Hindu, Jewish states)
Note:
Capitalism 2.0 is a metaphor.
Internet 1.0 was slow, narrowband, with speeds of 5k per second or less, text not video
Internet 2.0 is Fast, Broadband, with speeds of 1000k per second plus. Video, Multimedia etc
so now in reverse order, bad to good....
5 Feudalism
Bad: In 5th place at the bottom, we have a feudal society.
Bad: Social mobility is non-existent.
Bad: Religious tolerance is non-existent. "You either follow my religion or die" (totally un-Islamic)
Bad: Industry is primitive.
Bad: Banking is non-existent. You have to physically move your gold.
Bad: Healthcare is primitive.
Bad: Most people live on farms.
Bad: The village 'chief' is the Law.
Bad: Most people are illiterate.
Bad: Women are treated like animals.
Bad: Class / Caste / tribe is the main identity
Bad: Monarchy is common
Summary: a thoroughly backward system - un-Islamic
Grade: 'G' - FAIL
4 Communism
Bad: In 4th place is Communism
Bad: Social mobility exists but since everyone gets paid the same, opportunities are limited
Bad: Religious tolerance is still non-existent. "You either follow my Communism or die"
Average: Industry has moved to the next level via the Industrial Revolution. Cars, airplanes etc
Bad: Banking is limited since private property is non-existent. You cannot even own your own car.
Good: Healthcare is massively improved. In some cases even better than a Capitalist system (Cuba)
Average: People may still live on farms, but because of the Industrial Revolution, cities become important
Bad: The Communist Party 'official' is the Law.
Good: Most people can read (literacy is as high as 95% in some cases) - better than Capitalist states
Average: Women can get jobs, but like men they cannot own private property
Bad: Class is the main identity
Bad: The King is replaced with a "Chairman". Still a dictator (although not meant to be).
Summary: a backward system - un-Islamic - some improvements over Feudalism but not a good system
Grade: 'F' - FAIL
3 Capitalism 1.0 - secular liberal democratic
Average: In 3th place is Capitalism 1.0 (what we have now)
Good: Social mobility exists for many people. If you work hard and are smart/lucky you can make it
Average: Religious tolerance is improved but only domestically. "You either practice my Secularism or die"
Good: Industry is at the next level. Private Ownership means people have an incentive to work harder.
Average: Banking is available for the masses. It is unstable and prone to crashes but still works - for now
Average: Healthcare is good, but not as good as in Communist system (compare: USA and Cuba)
Good: Most people live in cities. Job opportunities are good (until the 1990s). Many/most are middle-class.
Average: Democracy means people have some political voice. Not much, but more than Communism
Good: Most people can read - but as in Communism people are discouraged to "Think". 'Just enjoy life'
Good: Women can get jobs, own private property. Unfortunately there is still the "glass ceiling" for many.
Bad: Class is not as important. However tribalism / racism is similar to feudal levels. Primitive.
Bad: The King is replaced by a President/PM or "Decider" who tortures people and is a tyrant abroad.
Summary: a much better system than Communism - un-Islamic - spoiled by defects like Imperialism
Grade: 'E' - FAIL - would have got a better mark but let down by routine Imperialism and torture
2 Capitalism 2.0 - A superior Capitalism - almost identical to Islam
Good: In 2nd place is Capitalism 2.0 (theoretical only)
Good: Social mobility exists for nearly everone. Jobs are plentiful and most are on permanent contracts
Good: Religious tolerace is good. "You practice your religion - i won't impose my secular thoughts on you"
Good: Industry has moved on. The focus is on technology benefitting people instead of killing people.
Good: Banking is based on Gold. The economy is stable. Equity increasingly replaces Interest.
Good: Healthcare is excellent for all. Free at the point of delivery. Cancer is cured.
Good: Most people live in cities. Most are middle class and prosperous. Work-life balance is good.
Good: Political accountibility is real. Judges are actually independent. The Media is not propaganda.
Excellent: Every single person can read. Thinking is encouraged. An Ideas (not pleasure) based society.
Excellent: Women can get jobs or choose to look after their children. No pressure. No pornography.
Good: Class, tribe, race is irrelevant. Racism is history.
Average: The leader cannot make any law he likes. People stop him if he tries to pass a "patriot act"
Summary: Now we are starting to get "civilised" - not as good as Islam but nearly identical Grade: C+ / B- PASS - good but could do better
1 Islam <----------- (as applied in totality on a State level, in other words the Khilafah State)
Excellent: In 1st place is Islam (Islamic Khilafah State)
Excellent: Social mobility exists for every single person. Opportunities for advancement exist for everone.
Excellent: Religious tolerance is examplary. No other society on earth has the harmony of the Islamic system. Excellent: Industry goes into overdrive. Islam unlocks millions of minds, with free university education using oil to start.
Excellent: Banking: 'Equity' not interest is basis of business. Gold Standard kills inflation. Economy is rock solid.
Excellent: Healthcare is at the next level. Free for all people. Muslims offer free healthcare to poor/sick people globally.
Excellent: People live in green leafy cities. Nearly all are middle class and wealthy. Work-life balance is excellent
Excellent: Accountability, elections, justice, are 'real' not just lip service. Crime is near zero. Media reports "news".
Excellent: Every single person can read and most can "think" (outside the box). An ideological / ideas based society.
Excellent: Motherhood is honored. Working women are respected for their work not looks. Old women are respected.
Excellent: Islam creates a society where Muslims, Christians, Jews, Atheists, etc are moulded into ONE people. Excellent: Shariah Law limits State Power. Laws -cannot- be changed by the powerful men. Rights are protected.
Excellent: Spiritual values are more important than Money. Human beings are valued as people, not statistics.
Excellent: A nation that fasts one month every years knows the pain of hunger. Poverty is eliminated globally using oil.
Excellent: Income tax / VAT is abolished. A progressive 'un-invested wealth' tax is used. People spend more = more jobs.
Excellent: Islam invented banks. We never had a banking crisis in 1400 years. Islam is stable and built to last. God made.
Summary: "Civilisation" "Islam" "Its what God intended for human beings" "The Truth" Grade: A+++ PASS WITH DISTINCTION Historical records show Islam had the most tolerant harmonious society - even our enemies acknowledge this
Places like Dubai and Saudi Arabia which apply even 1% of Islam have a nearly zero crime rate. People feel safe. Compare with Islamic Spain
The Future
Bismark (I think that's his name) realised in the 1870s that Capitalists would have to give people in the West more
rights or else Capitalism would face serious pressure from Communism.
The competition with Communism led to:
Pensions
National Health Services
Welfare for the unemployed - and life-long job security
Education for the poor
etc
With the demise of Communism these things are beginning to be rolled back in the West.
Similarly Capitalism is beginning to face competition from Islam ideologically.
To compete the Capitalists will have to move to
Capitalism 2.0 (i.e. a more Stable, Gold-Based, Equity-Based, Tolerant, Islamic-like system)
It should lead to:
Pensions (re-linked to real earnings - again)
National Health Services - (Un-privatised - except for some out-sourced peripheral services)
Gold Standard Currency
Contracts where the risks and returns are shared, a move away from Interest based economics etc
The Capitalists / Neo-Cons are right to want to move the world away from Communism / Feudalism.
However Capitalism 1.0 is dying.
It is not stable.
Gloablly it is a disaster for billions of people.
Capitalism is not all bad.
But why settle for Communism when you can have Capitalism 1.0 ?
and why settle for Capitalism 1.0 when you can have Capitalism 2.0 ?
and why settle for Capitalism 2.0 when you can have Islam ?
Why have bronze or silver when you can have gold ?
The Capitalist 1.0 enthusiasts are like Internet 1.0 enthusiasts.
They are (inadvertantly) keeping the system back.
I think in the medium term the world needs new thinking.
Perhaps the metaphor of Capitalism 2.0 will be that bridge.
"All the strengths of Capitalism without any of its weaknesses"
However, for the Muslim world, we should bypass, metaphorical Capitalism 2.0 and adopt Islam (almost Capitalism 3.0) - perhaps this stretches the metaphor a bit.
The aim of attacking Capitalism 1.0 (the current system) like attacking Internet 1.0 is not to deny people the use of the internet. But it is to UPGRADE the people to broadband.
Similarly the aim of attacking Capitalism is to upgrade it to Capitalism 2.0
and in the far future possibly Islam (like a super-duper broadband internet 3.0....1,000,000k per second download speeds?)
We Muslims can go directly to Islam - as a State.
Perhaps the West will need to move to an intermediate ideological metaphor.
It will have to do something new to compete with the Gold Standard, Equity Based, Just, Islamic System I have outlined above.
Islam is the only (remaining) "stable" free-market ideology
If you don't like the word Islam, try Capitalism 2.0
It is (nearly) the same thing.
But Capitalism 2.0 is only a metaphor.
Where as Islam is a 1400 year old rock-solid,
gold-based, free market ideology (with 10% 'religion')
Conclusion:
So what is ISLAM's END-GAME?
Short answer: UPGRADE the Human Race!
God knows best
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Posts:
705
From:
International World Citizen
Registered:
10/7/07
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Re: Credit Crunch.. Where Did Money Go?
Posted:
Oct 18, 2008 2:55 AM
in response to:
currychips
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Good luck with establishing Khailafah, Australia has already established your impression of:
** 2 Capitalism 2.0 - A superior Capitalism - almost identical to Islam **
-- and we’re very contented with its success. With our distinctive sense of humor we refer to our enlightened system as; ‘Socialist-capitalism’. We have made living like ‘bag-ladies’ (as the unemployed have to live like in the USA) illegal by giving pensioners and unemployed a guaranteed $1,000 a month each to spend, a free flat equipped with all mod conveniences (with bathrooms even fitted with hand-rails and fold-down seats in showers for our aged & invalids), free medical & dental care, free unlimited expenses for any medical operations needed, (including free $100,000 heart operations), free glasses, public transport travel concessions, electricity bill reductions, half priced taxi fares to and from medical appointments, and even supply 3 course meals for cost, delivered to your door by unpaid volunteers if you’re unable to cook for yourself.
Pretty close to Khalifah do you think? Capitalism still reigns supreme, although our immensely wealthy do have a nasty habit of referring to our esteemed leader as “Robin Hood!”.
The USA has a lot to learn from us and perhaps Obama should study and seek to implement our successful system. We were at last study the 3rd best country in which to live, but with the European economies following the US down the gurgler, undoubtedly we are now number !. The USA had slipper from 8th place to 12th in the last assessment and lord knows what position it will hold in ‘best places to live in’ after this current economic debacle ends.
It’s so sad to see a once proud nation now on it’s knees. The US still has a chance to recover if it’s smart enough to elect Obama and kick out the Jewish banking vampires, but whether or not the simple-minded racial red-necks have enough intelligence to encompass forward vision is still to be seen.
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Posts:
21
Registered:
10/18/08
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Rise of Evil
Posted:
Oct 18, 2008 7:48 AM
in response to:
currychips
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Not to mention: A catalogue of racist behaviour; 'animal lock up time' in immigration detention centres that are worse than prisons. Fuel poverty affecting the vulnerable families and incapacity benefit cuts which hit the sick Homelessness: Tent Cities rise across the West Families with low income households living with benefit cuts. According to reports unemployed families are well below the poverty line. This is how Hitler came to power
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Posts:
21
Registered:
10/18/08
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Re: Credit Crunch.. Where Did Money Go?
Posted:
Oct 18, 2008 7:51 AM
in response to:
iec
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What Islam Did For Us: Understanding Islam's Contribution to Western Civilization (Paperback) by Tim Wallace-Murphy (Author)   (5 customer reviews)
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Posts:
705
From:
International World Citizen
Registered:
10/7/07
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Re: Credit Crunch.. Where Did Money Go?
Posted:
Oct 18, 2008 10:10 AM
in response to:
diced
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The article linked here will give a more comprehensive explanation of the current financial problems and why it will not be resolved in the near future unless drastic action is taken. In the interim much suffering of vulnerable populations world-wide can be expected. For the populations of the less advanced nations this could have catastrophic consequences.
It is a MUST to read.
System Failure and the Need for Revolution:
http://rinf.com/alt-news/contributions/system-failure-and-the-need-for-revolution/4731/
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Posts:
9
Registered:
10/18/08
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Re: Credit Crunch.. Where Did Money Go?
Posted:
Oct 18, 2008 11:12 AM
in response to:
Mustaf_Asay
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A contradiction consists of a logical incompatibility between two or more propositions. A contradiction in terms of a statement may contain two sentences in a discussion which contradict each other's meaning, whereby one may even contradict oneself and abandon a position one had earlier stated, as in these two sentences below: "-- and we’re very contented with its success" The wording in this sentence is self-contradictory to: "explanation of the current financial problems and why it will not be resolved in the near future" An admittance to faliure would have shown more humility and character. "Writing off the top of one's head" or "thinking on paper (computer)" would only be reasonable for "jotting down ideas" or working on a draft copy. Once a piece of writing gets to where it is shown, there are expectations that it is certain ways fully formed, not self-contradictory, and at least sufficiently polished, in order for others to judge the competancy of the reasoning one is showing it.
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Posts:
705
From:
International World Citizen
Registered:
10/7/07
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Re: Credit Crunch.. Where Did Money Go?
Posted:
Oct 18, 2008 7:39 PM
in response to:
wordmaster
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I see, so we are so badly off now that our Prime Minister could last week afford to present every pensioner gifts of $1,500 in cash to spend for Christmas and grant increases to all pensions? That move was designed to stimulate our economy and prevent us going down the gurgler like the US is doing. And our PM was also able to GUARANTEE that all savings held in our banks will be safe for the next 3 years.
Of course in times of world financial crisis all governments confer with each other. There’s nothing remarkable about that.
If you invest foolishly you will inevitably lose. At the last financial crash, due to his astuteness my grandfather increased his wealth by 385 million dollars whilst others were leaping from skyscrapers. Such a wealth increase would probably amount to billions in today’s terms. Not everybody loses in depressions. He bought property low and sold high after recovery. What makes you think I would not be capable of following in his footsteps? All stocks rise and fall constantly. Never believe all the nonsense you read in the media. It is manipulated as well. The primary stock losses on the exchange are by those who invested in US based businesses and it serves then right for not being loyal to our own companies...
My family’s company not only owns vast real estate, shopping malls and even rents buildings to banks; it owns shares in tin mines, bauxite mines & also in a gold mine in China as well as locally, and although gold has fallen slightly in price it is only temporary. It will never fall drastically in the long term so I have hardly any cause to worry or to panic sell, having always been smart enough to retain large cash reserves for any unforeseen economic downturns. Aluminum & tin will always be in demand for construction no matter what happens.
As for the fool Howard, he was kicked out because Australians were against the war all along, He lost the election by a landslide and hopefully his party will be in limbo for a long time to come. My family was primarily responsible in financing the organization that was responsible for his demise, so good riddance...
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Posts:
21
Registered:
10/18/08
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Re: Credit Crunch.. Where Did Money Go?
Posted:
Oct 18, 2008 11:39 AM
in response to:
Mustaf_Asay
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RE: "In the interim much suffering of vulnerable populations world-wide can be expected. For the populations of the less advanced nations this could have catastrophic consequences". By giving threats and predicting human suffering, you have proved the West's fascist, hegemonic, Nazi regime being born out of Chaos for a New World Disorder!
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Posts:
21
Registered:
10/18/08
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Re: Credit Crunch.. Where Did Money Go?
Posted:
Oct 18, 2008 11:41 AM
in response to:
iec
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Watch on Youtube: A New World Order out of Chaos: The Economic Depression!
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Posts:
705
From:
International World Citizen
Registered:
10/7/07
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Re: Credit Crunch.. Where Did Money Go?
Posted:
Oct 18, 2008 1:37 PM
in response to:
diced
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Wordmaster, --- there are no contradictions in my posts. There is a vast difference in what is occurring in the USA and the situation in my own stable nation of AUSTRALIA, with it’s carefully managed economy. Our ability to survive recession is purely due to the skill of our leaders in ensuring that our national well being is not vulnerable to adverse international conditions, and by them not allowing the value of our currency to fall into the hands of foreign manipulators.
The statement “We (Australians) are indeed satisfied with the skills of our leaders” does not contradict the statement that the “AMERICAN financial problems will not be resolved in the near future” because Australians are not responsible for the foolish actions of US leaders.
Diced,--- There is no gloating as you seem to infer about possessing intelligent perception or the ability to project into the future by analyzing current trends and drawing logical conclusions. Contrary to your accusation that we are uncompassionate ‘fascists’, I would like to remind you that we have always been in the forefront in offering aid to any nations that have suffered setbacks, such as being the most generous per capita in donations when Indonesia was struck by the Tsunami. In spite of our small population the average Australian family of 4 donated $750 in aid which far surpassed the contribution per capita of any other nation on earth. The world’s Muslim populations contributed approximately 0.04 cents per capita towards the plight of their fellow Muslims in Indonesia. Go figure.
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Posts:
9
Registered:
10/18/08
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Your fellow Australians Are Panicking as the Market Slips Away...
Posted:
Oct 18, 2008 2:59 PM
in response to:
Mustaf_Asay
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Too late! The damage has already been done! If you think that there's a vast difference between Australia and the US then think again. Australia is part of the West and part of the Big Game. It is well known that the former Prime Minister John Howard committed a war crime by sending troops to Iraq. http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/02/2262414.htm Your statement about not allowing the value of Australia's currency to fall into the hands of foreign manipulators is myth, as according to the White House, Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd had already spoken to Mr. Bush earlier about the global financial crisis: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/11/2388268.htm The world's stock market are falling and that includes Australian economy: Video: Australian investors follow Wall St panic (Lateline) Only 1 hr 6 minutes ago the Australian market has plummeted 5 percent and is slipping away. While your fellow Australians are panicking, you're still dreaming of a fantasy world!
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Posts:
705
From:
International World Citizen
Registered:
10/7/07
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Re: Your fellow Australians Are Panicking as the Market Slips Away...
Posted:
Oct 18, 2008 7:44 PM
in response to:
wordmaster
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Somehow my response to your post got positioned above
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Posts:
5
Registered:
10/18/08
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Denying doesn't change the truth
Posted:
Oct 18, 2008 8:36 PM
in response to:
Mustaf_Asay
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The weather today is an increasing trend towards denial, but denying, doesn't change the truth
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Posts:
21
Registered:
10/18/08
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Islam & the Global Economic Pyramid
Posted:
Oct 18, 2008 4:41 PM
in response to:
iec
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An excerpt taken from the Economic System of the Quran by Muhammad Abdul Malek: The following section (12.2.i) is taken from an article named, Islam: Taking root in Europe, by Sahib Mustaqim Bleher. The section following (12.2.ii) includes part of an article published in The Guardian of 9th Jan. '87, by F. Clairmonte and J. Cavanagh, on the unprecedented debt crisis facing the Third World, preceded by my own comments. 12.2.i Every ideology has its basic underlying philosophy: Capitalism emphasises the individual 'free will', Communism equates the value of man with his productive capacity, and Modern Philosophy stresses the relativity of everything. The underlying philosophical notion of Islam is balance. When Allah created the world, everything was in its right place. Through the subsequent interaction of numerous entities and forces in the world, this order is continuously being disturbed. The balance will be lost, unless and until this imbalance is redressed, and humanity returned onto the right, straight and even path. This principle can be applied to all spheres of human experience. The over-rating of material advancement has stifled spiritual advancement; as a consequence, uncontrolled pollution has disturbed ecological equilibrium; greed has produced a world of contrasts through an unfair distribution of resources; the world's leading societies' careless comfort has brought war to the doorsteps of countless nations. In all these examples the visible imbalance can be equated with the injustice of some towards others. To restore the balance inevitably means fighting injustice. Islam, therefore, can never be a mere private religion practised in homes and monasteries. If it is not political, it is not Islam. The Qur'an's account of Pharonic society tells us that human society rests on three pillars: The social, political and military sphere (represented by Pharaoh); the economic sphere (represented by Qaroon/Corah); and the ideological sphere of education, religion and media-propaganda (represented by Haman). The three are inter-related, and the fight against oppression will remain unsuccessful, if directed against one without the other two. This is what has happened in the past. When various bands of nationalism within the Muslim world shook off the yoke of colonialism, the result was the creation of countries which got rid of a foreign political elite, but remained intellectually and economically controlled from outside. The Islamic revival of various Muslim movements around the world concentrated exclusively on the spiritual aspects of Islam, the need for the refinement of the individual's character, and was consequently unable to free anybody from political and economic bondage. Muslim attempts at economic reforms were limited to minor issues, for they did not address the question of political and media control. It seems that most, if not all, the Muslim movements over the last few centuries have been fooled by Western divide-and-rule-policy in that they adopted a dialectically and analytically fragmented approach in their effort, rather than the holistic approach that Islam demands. Modern materialistic society has such refined mechanisms of control in place that its injustice can be passed off as a just cause. Its rejection of divine law and emphasis of individualism renders the individual isolated and helpless against bureaucratic human regulation. Its media propaganda machine turns falsehood into truth by effectively filtering all available information to a permitted norm as well as twisting the perception of events through classic double-speak. Its ever growing drugs and narcotic industry sedates people to a point where they become indifferent to the suffering of others, unable to relate, unmotivated, and turn all their potential energies for change inwardly against themselves. Its political institutions provide justification of the most perverse deeds of injustice by an elaborate process of "decision-making" which effectively rubber stamps any action the elite wishes to take. Its economic system clearly uses the instrument of interest for continuing re-distribution of wealth away from its producers to a small clique of monopolists who have mortgaged the life of almost every individual on earth. http://www.astudyofquran.org/web/index.php?id=66,0,0,1,0,0 http://members.aol.com/MAmalek2/qbook12.htm
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Posts:
1
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10/18/08
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Do Not Take Without Giving
Posted:
Oct 18, 2008 5:31 PM
in response to:
iec
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Posts:
5
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10/18/08
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Giving Charity in the Quran
Posted:
Oct 18, 2008 8:47 PM
in response to:
Artamira
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“Those who (in charity) spend of their goods by night and by day, in secret and in public have their reward with their Rabb (only God and Sustainer). On them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve.” (Qur'an, 2:274) “…that which you give for charity, seeking the Countenance of Allah, (will increase); it is those who will get a recompense multiplied.” (Qur’an, 30:39)
“Only those who believe in Our Signs, who when they are recited to them fall down in adoration, and celebrate the praises of their Rabb (only God and Sustainer), nor are they (ever) puffed up with pride. They forsake their beds of sleep, the while they call on their Rabb (only God and Sustainer), in Fear and Hope. And they spend (in charity) out of the sustenance which We have bestowed on them. Now no person knows what delights of the eye are kept hidden (in reserve) for them -- as a reward for their (good) Deeds. Is then the man who believes no better than the man who is rebellious and wicked? Not equal are they. For those who believe and do righteous deeds are Gardens as hospitable Homes, for their (good) deeds.” (Qur'an, 32:15-19)
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Posts:
63
From:
SOUTH AFRICA
Registered:
12/16/03
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Re: Credit Crunch.. Where Did Money Go?
Posted:
Oct 21, 2008 4:49 PM
in response to:
iec
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How has the economic crisis affected you? Who do you think is responsible? Is capitalism failing? No one seems to be very happy at present. See this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7675903.stm
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