Robert Fisk is a very good writer.  I admire his sincerity.

"Yet twice now since Israel's onslaught began, the Israelis have ordered villagers to leave their houses and then attacked them with aircraft as they obeyed the Israeli instructions and fled."

There's still more to come.  Unfortunately.

Good writer? yes. Good reporter? no. Sincere? Yes. Objective? no.

BB

Well, obviously the Independent think otherwise.

Why shouldn't he be objective?

Is he a Muslim? No.

Is he a Jew? No. 

Is he a Lebanese? No. 

Is he an Israeli? No.

It's very conveniant to claim someone is not objective when he says what we don't want to know. Just in a previous post, he said things against Hezbullah not respecting the Geneva Convention also.  I still think he is objective.  Very much so.  My hat goes off to him, or should I say my head scarf?  (Something tells me ur not gonna let this remark go easily)

Why shouldn´t he be objective?

And why aren´t you?

Everyone of us takes sides.i can not be 100% objective,because i take sides with Israel against hezbollah.You can not be objective because you take sides with hezbollah against israel.Now you will start to explain that you do not support Hezbollah,and that you only want peace and that the children would not die.You can even add" on both sides".

But anyone who  demands now the ceasefire is-he wants it or not-supporting Hezbollah.The ceasefire means its victory.And the victory of hezbollah means that in 3 or 4 months new children will die.It´s only a temporal solution,which is no solution at all.

We can mourn about victims.But if we do not want to see more of them-hezbollah must be destroyed.

Ok, Amir, lucky for me and for all of us, God is the only one who knows what's really inside our hearts.  So u being sarcastic as to my real intention of wishing peace for Israelis, and adding "on both sides" to my wishes really makes no difference to me.  God doesn't need u, or anyone else for that matter, to judge what is inside my heart.  It is enough for me to know that He knows.

U r not objective, I am glad u know that.  Although u r a Muslim, ur biased towards the other direction.  I am a Muslim, and maybe in ur eyes and eyes of others in here, I am a biased, self-righteous Muslim who wants nothing more than to blame Israel and sleep peacefully at night?? Maybe.

So, I am glad when someone like Robert Fish, and others on BBC World say what others have failed to say.

Oh, and another thing, a cease-fire will not be a victory for Hezbullah, nor a victory for Israel for that matter. It will be a victory for humanity.  It will show that the world, namely the rest of us, can no longer tolerate human suffering ..and yes, Amir, "ON BOTH SIDES".

Victory for Humanity???The ceasfire with Hezbollah is the victory for Humanity???

i would like to ask you a question.Where were your calls to humanity and peace on the July,12?

Why did you not support the demand to free immidiately 2 Israeli soldiers kidnapped by Hezbollah?Why did you recall about "humanity","peace"  and so on only when Israel started to bomb Lebanese cities?And when hezbollah for six years bombarded the Israeli ones,where were you and your calls to humanity?

I do not want to be offensive,but for these days that i am at this forum i read from you only commonplaces about how the people should live in peace.And what´s strange:the peace for you  means the immediate ceasefire,which is for the good of hezbollah.And why don´t you stand for the idea of the Heabollah giving in arms?That would be much better solution for peace,no?

Please,descend to real world.Can you imagine bin Laden embracing George Bush?Do you imagine Saddam Hussein warmly kissing the Kurds?

Do you know the time the human race lived without any war for hundreds of thousands of years of all its history?56 days.

56 days in hundreds of thousands of years the people did not kill each other.

War is the continuation of policy by military means.And until the political goals are achieved,

all these talks about "humanity" and "how wonderful  it would be to leave in peace" are simply senseless.

Israel started this war to achieve certain goals.On this stage these goals coincide with my interests,because i think that hezbollah must be destroyed and thrown out of lebanon.The destruction of hezbollah is for the world like destruction of AlQayeda,but on the smaller level.So,I support Israel,even after Qana and even if it happens again.iYou can not fry eggs without breaking them first.But if Israel occupies Lebanon and does not go out after crashing hezbollah,i shall stop supporting it.

And about living in peace...OK,i agree,let´s live happily in peace.But only after destruction of hezbollah.And without any ceasefire.

Salam

Selam

You look that you are having a warm day after the QANA MASSACRE and longing for onother one.War might be inevitable and the only solution that you have on the table but  it is something that happen when mental fails to work.

Please don't be so hast in conclusion about this forum , you have been interacting for only two weeks and I doubt if you have had enough time to listen as you posted  128 of such wonderfull warmonging posts so far!

You know that Hizbollah is after their occupied land and nothing more than that, they stated that clearly .All teh Lebanese without exception want Shebaa farm back and ofcourse all honoured persons all over the world want see occupied terretory liberated. That is why  confirmed their support to Hizbollah because they want their land.

It is Lebanese land, not that of Hassan Nasrallah, with or wothout him the ressistance will continue.So be forward do you want to sloughter atleast all the 87% of Lebanese which corresponds to millions of people just because they want their land back?

As long as there is occupation there will be ressistance, and the more you atack the stronger if not justice nothing wins a nation.

Selam

War is very often the best and only solution of all.Just remember the war with nazi germany.Europe appeased hitler for years.But he "ate " it all the same.And it was only through war that nazism was stopped.Appeasing the wild beast only makes him bolder.

I am not "hast"( i think you meant "fast") in my conclusions about this forum,because i have not made any conclusion at all and am not going to make it in future.There are brilliant minds at this forum,and there are total...not so brilliant.Usual thing.And i do not think that i am "interacting" for two weeks.Not more than 10 days.

128 of "wonderfull warmonging posts"?The result is not bad,but i am capable of more.I think i have to work harder,my employees in Tel Aviv are very demanding people.

"You know that Hizbollah is after their occupied land and nothing more than that, they stated that clearly".Just imagine,i do not know it.Ah,hezbollah stated it clearly,that they are after "their occupied land"?And "to liberate" it,they occupied the whole Southern Lebanon,the territory of which is about 1000 times bigger than the territory of Shebaa farm,and made the whole Lebanon the Syrian´s and Iranian´s puppet??That is what i call the true liberators! 

By the way,for your future references:Shebaa is considered by the UN as the territory of Syria,not Lebanon.So,Hezbollah is "liberating" the territory of Syria ,occupying the territory of Lebanon?

"All teh Lebanese without exception want Shebaa farm back".

Without exception?Are you sure?Please,visit the site of free lebanon,and you will find there the petition signed by thousands of Lebanese who ask israel to get over with hezbollah,to be harsh with hezbollah,and offer Israel their MILITARY help to fight Hezbollah.

"and ofcourse all honoured persons all over the world want see occupied terretory liberated".

Yes of course.I also want the Lebanese territory ocupied by Hezbollah liberated.That is why i support Israel.You obviosly prefer to go on seeing Lebanon occupied-so you support hezbollah.

"It is Lebanese land, not that of Hassan Nasrallah, with or wothout him the ressistance will continue".

You are wrong.Southern Lebanon is the land of Hassan Nasrallah,and the whole Lebanon is the hostage of Syria and Iran.It´s a puppet.A doll.A clown.You are very eloquate,but you forget that you are talking not to some guy from Berlin or Paris who knows about the situation in Lebanon only what his Euronews will feed him with.I know a bit more.Don´t try to feed me with this "nasrallah liberates Lebanon from the sionists " staff,i shall not accept it even as a desert.

Selam

"Shebaa is considered by the UN as the territory of Syria,not Lebanon."

1) Thus, Shebaa is occupied territory and Israel is the Occupation force.

The Lebanes asked to reconsider this decision and it got assurance from the Syrian that it belongs to Lebanese Personally, wether its Lebanese or Syrian I don't want to see occupied land by force.

You may talk thousands of Lebanese at petition level but we are talking about millions of people and I am telling you the official statements of the goverment representing them.

"I'd like to remind you that the Shebaa Farms is not a property of Hezbollah. It's a property of Lebanon and it's for all the Lebanese. " Fouad Siniora (link )

Well, in Lebanon there are different sects and different poetical parties but their difference is not in Shebaa farm and "unfortunately" the goverment is unanimous that the occupied land should be liberated.

There is no surprise if you refer Hizbollah as "occupation" and refer Israel "Liberator" as it is a while since you got on this track and named all the adversaries who ressists the occupation as "Terrorist".What matters is that atleast 87% of the Lebanese are behind Hizbollah and they know it.

Yes, as  IB said you inflected a severe pain to the Lebanese and to the world of course after 37 children with their mother couldn't wake up and got sandwiched with `combatant proven" bombs .Cheers, you have destroyed terrorist highway,  72 terrorists over pass, 62 Hassan Nasrallah`s bridges,and if you go to Lebanon you find 5000 terrorists house demolished, diary factory which used to feed terrorists children...............you displaced about a million of top of the terrorists and about 600 key personel.

"You can't win this war, yes you can kill [you can destroy, slaughter

] but can't win" Siniora said and I think he got the nail on the head.

Selam

Perhaps it is strategically foolish but I think Israel has demonstrated to everyone it's ability to inflict suffering onto Lebanon and Hezbollah. I think now is a good time to give a less destructive approach a try. I think if they can get some kind of guarantee from the international community that the world will not going to sit idly by as Hezbollah brings in more missiles to arm the border then they should give peace a try. So this is what needs to happen.

Israel stops military agression.

Lebanon with the backing of the international community reclaims it's sovereignty and disbands Hezbollah's military wing.

If Lebanon refuses then we let Israel take their time to dismantle hezbollah for as long as they want. No more rushing them to get it done in 10 days.

If Lebanon succeeds in taking back their country they get the stupid farms

BB

Who will give this guarantee?The international community is a very unclear thing.Which country will guarantee israelsánd Lebanonñs security?France?Germany?it´s ridiculous.And besides,what you offer is that someone went to die for Israelis and Lebanese.Why should i or a guy from France risk my life for them?Would you leave your family and your children and go to Lebanon to protect the interests of Israel and Lebanon,knowing that you can be killed?

The international community in its UN resolution 1559 demanded of hezbollah to give in arms 6 years ago.And what?

"If Lebanon refuses then we let Israel take their time to dismantle hezbollah for as long as they want. No more rushing them to get it done in 10 days".

Lebanon has already refused.The President of Lebanon Emil Lahoud in his interview to Aljazeera said that his country is against the deployment of the multinational forces in South Lebanon.He said that Lebanon does not believe anyone but the United Nations,and declared that the only acceptable solution for Lebanon are the groups of UN unarmed observers.Unarmed UN observers-against hezbollah and IDF.

Now what,InfidelBob?Shall we "stop israeli military aggression",or shall  we "let Israel take their time to dismantle hezbollah for as long as they want. No more rushing them to get it done in 10 days"?What is your choice?

We have all learned a few things from watching these
hostilities over the past weeks.

Firstly we have learned or at least have been reminded that
Israel can decimate their neighbours (Lebanon in particular) without much
effort. With its reserves, Israel has an army of half a million! A full time
army of $170,000. How many have they sent over the border? A few thousand?
Israel is still mobilizing (getting ready for war) and their opponent is
already begging for mercy.

Secondly, we have learned that Hezbollah are incapable of
defending Lebanon. They can’t even defend themselves. Right now the best
defense the Lebanese can hope for is the conscience of the IDF. Perhaps when
the Lebanese get a chance to reflect, they will admit that having a few
thousand foreign paid terrorists as a border defense was never a good idea.
Sure right now Hezbollah are getting a lot of moral support from the Lebanese
and other Muslims around the world (I’m sure that makes them feel better while
they are being hunted down like dogs) but this moral support will evaporate as
soon as the fighting stops. By not releasing the 2 Israeli captives Mr. Nasrallah has shown us all that he
cares more about his personal pride than the Lebanese people. Lebanon is going
to need plenty of western money to rebuild after. Money talks, and if
reclaiming their sovereignty is a condition to getting that money, I think they
will play ball.

Thirdly we have learned that Hezbollah’s offensive
capabilities are negligible. How many civilians did they kill in 2 weeks? 50?
Give us a couple of shotguns and a case of beer and you and I can inflict that
kind of damage in an afternoon. These guys have had 6 years to build up their
forces and this is the best they could do. Israel has killed 14 times more
civilians by accident than Hezbollah has killed on purpose. Blow up a bunch of
Lebanese kids and thousands of men will attack the empty UN offices in Beirut
but do you see them rushing to the south to join in the fight? Of course not.
They have no fight in them.

Now you may say that they brought this upon themselves and
maybe you have a point, but let me tell you a little story that may or may not
have some relevance. When I was growing up in the suburbs of Toronto there was
this one kid who kept on getting hit by cars. We didn’t even live near any busy
roads and this kid got hit 3 times. The third time he road his bike out in
front of a car and I was there to see the whole thing. I remember looking down
at his crumpled body, listening to him weep thinking what is wrong with this
kid? The best thing for him would be for the car to back over him and finish
him off. But I still felt sorry for him. The Palestinians and Lebanese are like
that kid. They keep making the same **** mistakes over and over, but we can’t
completely give up on them because they are still our brothers. Deep down
beneath all that dumbness is a glimmer of hope.

So I say, let’s ease up a bit and give them another
chance. Hezbollah has eased up a lot on their rocket attacks and that is a sign
that they are willing to accept a ceasefire.

Dear Elaine,

Please read this.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/742257.html

Morality is not on our sideBy Ze'ev Maoz

There's practically a holy consensus right now that the war in the North is a just war and that morality is on our side. The bitter truth must be said: this holy consensus is based on short-range selective memory, an introverted worldview, and double standards.

This war is not a just war. Israel is using excessive force without distinguishing between civilian population and enemy, whose sole purpose is extortion. That is not to say that morality and justice are on Hezbollah's side. Most certainly not. But the fact that Hezbollah "started it" when it kidnapped soldiers from across an international border does not even begin to tilt the scales of justice toward our side.

Let's start with a few facts. We invaded a sovereign state, and occupied its capital in 1982. In the process of this occupation, we dropped several tons of bombs from the air, ground and sea, while wounding and killing thousands of civilians. Approximately 14,000 civilians were killed between June and September of 1982, according to a conservative estimate. The majority of these civilians had nothing to do with the PLO, which provided the official pretext for the war.

In Operations Accountability and Grapes of Wrath, we caused the mass flight of about 500,000 refugees from southern Lebanon on each occasion. There are no exact data on the number of casualties in these operations, but one can recall that in Operation Grapes of Wrath, we bombed a shelter in the village of Kafr Kana which killed 103 civilians. The bombing may have been accidental, but that did not make the operation any more moral. On July 28, 1989, we kidnapped Sheikh Obeid, and on May 12, 1994, we kidnapped Mustafa Dirani, who had captured Ron Arad. Israel held these two people and another 20-odd Lebanese detainees without trial, as "negotiating chips." That which is permissible to us is, of course, forbidden to Hezbollah.

Hezbollah crossed a border that is recognized by the international community. That is true. What we are forgetting is that ever since our withdrawal from Lebanon, the Israel Air Force has conducted photo-surveillance sorties on a daily basis in Lebanese airspace. While these flights caused no casualties, border violations are border violations. Here too, morality is not on our side.

So much for the history of morality. Now, let's consider current affairs. What exactly is the difference between launching Katyushas into civilian population centers in Israel and the Israel Air Force bombing population centers in south Beirut, Tyre, Sidon and Tripoli? The IDF has fired thousands of shells into south Lebanon villages, alleging that Hezbollah men are concealed among the civilian population. Approximately 25 Israeli civilians have been killed as a result of Katyusha missiles to date. The number of dead in Lebanon, the vast majority comprised of civilians who have nothing to do with Hezbollah, is more than 300.

Worse yet, bombing infrastructure targets such as power stations, bridges and other civil facilities turns the entire Lebanese civilian population into a victim and hostage, even if we are not physically harming civilians. The use of bombings to achieve a diplomatic goal - namely, coercing the Lebanese government into implementing UN Security Council Resolution 1559 - is an attempt at political blackmail, and no less than the kidnapping of IDF soldiers by Hezbollah is the aim of bringing about a prisoner exchange.

There is a propaganda aspect to this war, and it involves a competition as to who is more miserable. Each side tries to persuade the world that it is more miserable. As in every propaganda campaign, the use of information is selective, distorted and self-righteous. If we want to base our information (or shall we call it propaganda?) policy on the assumption that the international environment is going to buy the dubious merchandise that we are selling, be it out of ignorance or hypocrisy, then fine. But in terms of our own national soul searching, we owe ourselves to confront the bitter truth - maybe we will win this conflict on the military field, maybe we will make some diplomatic gains, but on the moral plane, we have no advantage, and we have no special status.

The writer is a professor of political science at Tel Aviv university.

It cost me to find the information about this Ze'ev Maoz on the Internet,but at last i found it.

Ze'ev Maoz is ultra-left.For him,as well as for you,Israel in its relationships with us is always on the wrong,no matter what Israel does.

To present the opinions of Ze'ev Maoz as representing the opinions of some significant part of Israelis is the same as to present my opinion as representing the opinion of some significant part of Muslims.

Salam 

U know what, Amir, I didn't care to find out what was behind the name of the author, and I am not going to ask u to prove what u just said about him.  I simply do not care.

What I care about, and what I hope one day you would too,are the principles and ethics this man was talking about, regardless of being a Muslim or a Jew, an Israeli or an Arab, a right-wing or left-wing.  Why judge people like that? 

Dear InfidelBob

I see there are a lot of things you have already learned.I have not learned so many yet,and i ask you to help me understand some things better.

First,i used to think that the ceasefire should be followed by some kind of agreement between the fighting sides.But there is no one with whom israel would be able to sign the agreement.

Lebanese Government is a fiction yet.It will do what hezbollah orders.The last example was the order of hezbollah to cancel the visit of Condolizza Rice-and Siniora obeyed.Do you think that even if Lebanese Government  signs some agreement with Israel(which is impossible),this agreement will be fulfiled by Hezbollah?

So,Siniora and company are out.

Who is left?Hezbollah.

Is it possible that Israel and hezbollah would sign an agreement about stopping the hostilities not just for now,but for some reasonable time period,let´s say 10 years?No.Because hezbollah lives only until Iran gives money.And Iran gives money only until hezbollah attacks Israel.Hezbollah had been created  to fight against Israel.It stops to attack Israel-Iran stops to pay-Nasrallah and other Hezbollah´s leaders are reduced to nothing.WIll they allow this to happen,how do you think?

Israel now is creating new and free Lebanon.And Fuad Siniora understands it.Look at what he said:his critics of Israel are every day more moderate,while his critics of hezbollah are becoming more and more outright.If some people now stops Israel,then forget about free Lebanon for another 20-30 years,and the attacks on Israel will start again in a week after Israel stops its offensive.

Hezbollah can not live it it does not attack Israel.Try to understand it.And because of that any peaceful solution of the conflict between Israel and Hezbollah is at this stage IMPOSSIBLE.

Salam.

Heya Karen,

Thanks, dear!! I live in Cairo, not at the moment, but home is where the heart is and my heart is set in Mohandessen, Cairo, Egypt. I used to go to a school for 8 years and could see the pyramids out of my classroom window.  I hope u can come and visit soon, inshaalah.  I would be so, so happy to welcome u there.  And, like I said many, many times in here, the pyramids, imo, are the least fascinating sight in Egypt.  

Greece is on my to-go list:) We used to have many Greeks in here and there is some sort of bond with them.  We still have a famous cafe in Alexandria by the beach, have u heard of it? This cafe is called Trianon.  It was owned by Greeks and is still there till this day with beautiful paintings of Saints on the walls and ceilings.

Wishing u the best of the best, always

 "There is a misconception that journalists can be objective ... What
journalism is really about is to monitor power and the centres of
power."

Robert Fisk.

I don't think Robert would be insulted for me saying he is not objective.

Please put that head scarf back on! The mere thought of your shimmering locks blowing gently in the breathe is too distracting for the good muslim men on this board to bare!

(God, I hate being predictable)

BB

"Journalism is about monitoring power and the centers of power"  Good point, and imo, a good objective behind journalism.  He is, in fact, proving that journalism has a mission, which is to observe, monitor and control centers of power, in order for these powers to be constantly under supervision and not become abusive.

I believe all journalists should have that mission.  There was a journalist, an Egyptian, whom I used to love, up until the day he did an article on my school, Misr Language Schools, which was a very high-profile school in terms of having a "who's-who" on the board.  He went on and on about the fabulous system, which we didn't have, the fabulous scenery and greenery and landscape and buildings, which we had, and our wonderful principal, whom we SELDOM saw.  I felt it was paid-job and it made me question his articles from them on.  Maybe I misjudged him, but experiencing first-hand what he was praising, I decided to not completely trust his words from them on.

And, yeah, that's the exact response I expected from u.

Green with envy that u have an "o" in ur name to use as smily faces.. but i got around it last time  

" It makes us wonder what can ordinary Muslim people do in response to the massacre at Qana? What can we do to express our anger at what has happened to innocent women and children?"

i am one of those "ordinary Muslims" on behalf of whom you pretend to speak.And this is what i want to say.

I feel sorrow for the dead,but i feel no anger.Israel attacked the building from which Hezbollah launched missiles on Israeli cities.It is proven and this fact is confirmed by photos and reports.Not a single nore or less serious Western newspaper does not even try to argue with this fact.

Children,of course,were innocent.But their parents were not.Hezbollah pays to the people 100 dollars a month in exchange for the permission to have the missile launching device in their houses.It means that these "parents" risk the lives of their children for 100 dollars a month.

Innocent?No.

But of course,the most terrible blame is on hezbollah.The Muslim organization that is ready to sacrifice so easily the lives of Muslims,including children, in order to achieve some political goals...Such a "Muslim"organization must be destroyed.

Completely,totally and forever.

Hezbollah pays to the people 100 dollars a month in exchange for the permission to have the missile launching device in their houses.It means that these "parents" risk the lives of their children for 100 dollars a month.

"Plz can you provide a link to this news,if there is none then you are a liar".

Here it is.

"Der Tagesspiegel",Germany,02.08.06.

"La Vanguardia",Spain,02.08.06

I do not even want to say you Salam.You are really disgusting.

i also do not speak German or Spanish,but there are English versions on-line.What a strange excuses the people find when they do not want to recognize that they are in the wrong!

Ok,i shall find you the same news in the "mainstream" English media.

What do you mean by "not a single militant found"?Israel has "found" quite a lot of them,and Hezbollah constantly recognizes the losses(although also constantly makes them smaller then they are really are).About 200 of them are already killed.

The EU is not under attack.So its opinion is irrelevant.And i ask you not to write the frank stupidities abot Arabs when you are talking with me.Leave it for the people from the West.The Arab nations Do NOT SUPPORT HEZBOLLAH.You know it.And if you don´t,then you are not Arab.Period.There is nothing to talk about.

"I will say we need more of Osama and Zarqawis right now who can stand up to fight these zionist terrorist and their terrorist states b'coz our leaders are too timid too confront America and his buddy Israel".

And i will say that you urgently need a doctor.

Selam

Cool dawn Amir:

This war is not going in Tora Bora, it is in Lebanon and being wath live from the front Line.From the Israeli side?No no nnnnnn they have circulated not to report live under emergency law unless ther is permission??? From Lebanon side Yes, a long as you take responsibility for yourself from "bunker buster bombs"............I am sure you don't watch even CNN, Israel leading propaganda outlet.I am not saying the Al-manar TV, the terrorists TV, which the Israeli reported as it never lie and reported all the Israeli deaths before any media outlet and confirmed by Israeli after almost a day.Al-Manar satellite TV, the one that Israeli forced the west to block to keep away from the truth but watch for themselves am not talking about aljazeera, the most popular channel among the Arabs that Israeli officials use to channel their propoganda to their Arab neighbors but wage against it when it comes to the West to block the exchange of truth?

Even CNN fed up of your lie, A valid effort by CNN anchor to expose Israeli propaganda .I think things will be over soon and all we want is to remove the barrier between the East and West so that they get each other.If you have 4 minute then get on this  "Apologists For Murder".  your top official held on line on broad day for the very same claim you ar hanging around and ended up in Apology for the slaughter.

Selam

I think the MOST interesting aspect of this whole conflict is.... Hezbollah started it and YET... .Muslim play the victim card. (What's new there?)

Hezbollah received no help (as of yet) from ANY OTHER Muslim nation, and now that the ignorant and arrogant actions of Hezbollah has dragged the Lebanese people into the conflict, Muslim (coward) nations STILL stand by and watch.

Come on?

Let's get it over with!

Where's that Jihad spirit?

What??? No takers?? Hummm, then that must mean the Arab and Muslim public DON'T support the actions Hezbollah took.

In FACT, many prominant Muslim and Arab voices chastised Hezbollah and demanded they return the kidnapped soldiers and STOP rocket attacks on civilian targets in Israel.

The reason they did this is simple.... they've learned from experience NOT to mess or piss off Israel.

Obviously you know nothing of the regional history if you believe Lebanon was in some way conquered by the Jews.

The Jew's have been in this area for more than 5000 years.

Why don't you look up how the Lebanese people and Jews coexisted and lived in the area.

You'll find the Canaanites (known as Phoenicians to the Greeks) are the earliest recorded people's in the area known as Lebanon.

The Jews never occupied the lands of Lebanon in ancient history.

In fact, the Phoenicians helped build Kings David and Solomon Palaces and Temple.

The Phoenicians WERE NOT MUSLIMS during this period of time in the Middle East.

See, that's were a lot of people get off track. They believe that the people who lived in the region were all MUSLIMS.

The Phoenicians were not Muslims.

But the Jews WERE Jews and Jerusalem was their capital.

But if you're looking for an occupier to blame, or some horrible nation to blame for the fate of the Phoenicians, blame the Assyrians.
The power-raising Assyrians invaded Phoenicia in 875 BC and deprived the Phoenicians of their independence. Byblos, Tyre and Sidon rebelled several times and the Assyrians brought total destruction to the cities in response.

Then there were the Babylonians, Persians,Greeks, and Romans.

 Another little fact is that a major portian of what was left of the Phoenicians became Christians, NOT MUSLIMS. Most call themselves Maronite Christians.

Guess who the next occupier/oppresser of the Lebanese tribes were?

MUSLIMS!

The sixth century witnessed an increased feeling of nationalism in Mount Lebanon and the Phoenician coast that gradually gave way to the name of Lebanon for the entire territory. The seventh century started the shaping of the multi-cultural Lebanon we know. The mountains became more populated especially by the Maronite Christians and Marada. Later, the Aramaic/ Assyrians and Cheldanites joined them, escaping persecution.

The Syrian (Islamic) governor Muawyah garrisoned the first troops along the Lebanese coast. (Now you see why Syria claims Lebanon as her own and occupied it for more than 20 years!)
Historians mention that the Arab-Muslims neither could, nor were willing to, fight in the mountains of Lebanon. Hence, they captured only coastal lands. Lebanon maintained a special situation with special autonomy. Some Arab historians wrote that Lebanon sometimes was not even treated as a part of the Islamic Empire. It was the only region were most of the population did not enter into the new religion of Islam.

While the Roman Empire army fell to the invading Muslim armies, the Mountains of Lebanon stood strong. Mauwyah even had to pay financial tribute to the Lebanese- Maronites and Marada in order to get them to stop their raids on Arab troops.

It was the Muslim Abbasids empire that finally conquered the Lebanese and the "convert or kill" policy was emplaced. The Abbasid empire treated Lebanon as a conquered country. Their harshness led to several revolts, with the most famous being the rebellion of the Lebanese mountaineers in 759 AD.

I can go on in detail Negashi, but let me just say this... at no point in history did Israel attempt to conquer Lebanon and it's people. It's only through the corruption of Islam and it's uncompermising attitude that the Lebanese people get involved in Muslim politics.
And it's only been recently that Israel has had to defend itself from Muslim aggression, leading to several attacks by Israel on Lebanon.

Now... isn't that interesting?

Those 'jews,' were not tied to the zionist-amerikan adventurism of these dark times.

Your knowledge of jewish history comes from the same source as your bombs.

As I have mentioned, military victory does not mean victory in today's global perspective.

The long , costly geographic guerilla war will  be  amerika's loss.

It is my feeling---that  these conflicts have just begun.

Just look at the renewal of the Taliban in Afghanistan.

u.s., coalition costs and casualties are mounting.

Hey Benn... since you can't "rewrite" history or the facts that surround it, why don't you just sit on the sidelines on this one and save all you're communist cheerleading for another post.

As long as the 'convert or be killed' mentality is part of this religion, then the rest of cilivization will fight to their dying breathe to throw off these shackles.  It worked maybe back in the middle ages, but not anymore.  The rest of the world can blatantly see just how radical Islam is threatening world peace. 

Selam

AMGI

"Israel is occupying Lebanese lands for centuries which all the Lebanese want it back. Listen what Carter said today:"

sorry,shortage of language  I meant  "decades" not `"centuries`".We couldn't agree on the ongoing history, do you think that we can get along with that of 5000.But, I can't rule out that the UN will have round table and the zionist may came up with the "land that God has promised them " but so far we don't have that resolution?

Otherwise, please don't ever come up with those slogan "Destroy jew, throw into the water" I have no problem with the Jews and Judaism.Just Zionist !

Selam

Negashi,

Look, you're post are following the same old drum beating that all the Muslims **** on.

Painting Israel as the bad guy in everything that happens and making the US it's proxy.

What do you thinks going to happen Negashi? Really I mean?

You think the Jews living in Israel are just going to roll over and act like nothing is going to happen?

You talk about "hating the Zionist".

Why? Have you ever met one?

Zionist aren't no different than the Pal's or Lebanese you say are being "occupied" or are trying to regain "their land" that you say was unjustly taken.

Unjustly taken by who?

Because I've got some news for you buddy, the Jews and Christians have lived in the Holy Lands and called Jerusalem it's capital LONG before Islam arrived on the scene to muddy up the truth and confuse people like you to the truth.

The Israelis are surrounded by enemies that have tried time and time again to destroy them. Don't you think you'd be a little over bearing and protective if you had groups and nations calling for the elimination of you're people and you're nation?

I understand the Japanese mentality pretty good Negashi. I know how racist the Japanese are, and how protective of their culture and people they are.

I also know that if the Muslims/Arabs were doing to Japan what they've done and are doing to Israel, the Japanese wouldn't stand for it!

So why is it you think the Jews should? I can't understand that mentality?

How can a Jew steal land that his family has existed on for THOUSANDS of years to a Muslim thats only been around a few centuries?

Don't let the propaganda fool you.

It's not the Arab Muslims fighting for their rights, it's the Jews.

It's not the Arab Muslims fighting off the scores of rockets launched into Israel everyday, or the homicide bombers sent into public buses and public cafe's, it's the Israelis.

The Jews live on less than 1% of the Middle East Negashi.

Have you ever asked yourself why the Arabs want that 1% of land that was never theirs to begin with??

How can a Jew steal land that his family has existed on for THOUSANDS of years to a Muslim thats only been around a few centuries? ...said AmGI

AmGI,

Have you ever heard of the mass immigration of Jews  since late 1881 to Palestine (which continue to this very day whereas Palestinians in the diaspora and Arabs are denied even visits to Palestine)?

Have you came across what Ben-Goriun and Moshe Dayan themselves said about how Israel has come to existence?

Doing some research will surely help.

Selam

Absoulutely, Easy, my country has sent them some who claimed they are Jews.Guess how they dettermined? By their genetic  affinity ,check it out

Selam

Selam

Wow, the weak Israel is the only one with bunkers buster bombs in the region?Aren't you always proud of being the fourth best equipped militarily in the world? The only country in the region with nuclear arsenal and didn't sign non proliferation treaty in the region?

I never said US it`s proxy, nor fifty second state of US.Read  "United State of Israel" and I would rather say 51 states are part of this.

"Have you ever met one?"

Yes, AMGI, did, just like you he is celebrating the Qana massacre and want to slaughter 8yrs old under pretext of  "Homicide bombers".This is the zionists mentality, their false propaganda worked well , they invade "and claim defense", they kill "and blame the others".

After all its not secret how many civilian live you massacred, the destruction you caused, you haven't only stolen the Arab lands but you make under the control all the equities....

AMGI, Where is the biggest prison in the world?

Say GAZA, let the world lean that it that it is the biggest prison with large gates.You have relative freedom to move around but only the type that cause you death Imagine you close the door and no food, no milk, no oil!!!! This is the truth that we need the world to learn. Israel can go into Gaza but when ever it want and where ever it want, but Abbas can go only when and where Israeli permit? This is the  truth that the word should know.

I won't to be fooled by any propaganda which convinces me to "slaughter 8 years" old children. The propoganda that you are huffing against the Arab and muslims is the typical one that the Nazi did to justy their holocaust Israeli's holocaust against the Arabs would take its position in the history and  you are doing this to a nation who accepted you and gave you peace while you were suffering in Europe.

Do you wand to learn the 5000 Al Quds Arab history , then you go here if you like and and learn about canaanite .Hah, you turned every stone to justify the occupation and all you are left is the logic "Judaism, and Christianity" existed before Islam thus the world belongs to them??? Where should the Buddhist go? What about the Japanese Shinto?The Hindu?.......... belief never make one to claim a land.You can revert to any religion but that never changes your nationality, does it?What is more imporatnt these land os occupied land and that is how the world recognize and UN refer.What is much important is how to stop the Israeli from occupying more lands?

AMGI, why don't you consider Lucy`s home , the forst dwelling of mankind (back to 3.2 million yrs)? I would give you a warm well come  

"I know how racist the Japanese are, and how protective of their culture and people they are."

AMGI, you don't meant it, do you? I am living with the Japanese but never exprienced what you are accusing of them.But, if you have had bad exprience then that might happen but it is my firs time to hear that the "Japanese are racist".Yes, they try to stick to their culture but they are not that strict and now they are responding to he influence.They go to the church when they have wedding and go to shrine/temple for funeral ceremonies !!!!

AMGI, you are not going to kill  8yrs old under any justification, are you? Well, only lough "if a baby shows that it hates me and want kill me" never bunker busters bombs and never Qana.

Let us stand togather against the Israeli from occupying more lands.Let us us say togather no More Qana, no more to the destruction of "terrosrists highways", "terrosrits diary factories".......

Selam

Brother,are you all right?Your post is full of such outrageously stupid statements that i am a bit worried about you.

We have nothing in common with Canaanites,Gaza is not a prison,and the Israelis are normal people who simply answer our aggression with force.We do not like it,of course,and so we invent all these fallacies you so accurately listed in your post to find excuses for our aggression-and for our constant defeats.

Try to think first about what i just wrote,instead of immidiately starting to argue with me.

Negashi,

You’re not really going to sit here and try and make me feel bad about Israel having a well equipped and well trained army are you?

I’ll tell you the same thing I told another individual that somehow thought the Israelis should meet the Pal’s or Hezi’s on equal combat conditions. ARE YOU CRAZY?

No army in the world would do such an ignorant thing!

For someone to even suggest that, just because the IDF is superior to the Heziboys they should somehow “take it easy” on them is ludicrous!  

You are Japanese.

Do you think the Imperial Japanese Army “took it easy” on the under equipped and under trained Chinese? How about the Koreans? Are you saying the Japanese military conquered Korea and enslaved them for more than 50 years by meeting them on a common field of battle?

REDICULOUS!!

The Japanese bombed Chinese civilian towns into rubble!!

In fact, the Japanese raped, pillaged and burned much of South East Asia and the Pacific!!!

So where in God’s name do you get this sanctimonious attitude at?

I’m almost positive I read in another post you wrote how you thought it unfair or wrong that the US supported Israel. Maybe I’m wrong. If I am, I’m sorry. But if I’m not, then admit it now!

Anyway, I always here the anti West advocates calling the US a proxy of Israel, or that Israel is in charge of the US. Always some stupid remark from these people.

Now, about the “baby killer” logo you’re starting to throw around.

You’ve never heard me say “I would kill these kids.”

What I’ve said is, the Heziboys raise their children to become homicide bombers. They teach them to hate the Jews!

They brainwash them so when they are older, they’ll join the ranks.

Thus, by reasoning, these children are nothing more than future enemies of Israel.

That’s the reality and the truth of the situation.

As such, though you’ll hear people say they regret the death of these “innocents”, the question begs…. Are they REALLY innocent?

In many cultures, young children were put to death so they would never grow up to seek revenge. With the mindset of the Middle East, I thought you’d understand this. I guess not.

"This is what the Lord says: 'As for all My wicked neighbors who seize the inheritance I gave My people Israel, I will uproot them from their lands and I will uproot the house of Judah from among them. But after I uproot them, I will again have compassion and will bring each of them back to his own inheritance and his own country. And if they learn well the ways of My people and swear by My name, saying, 'As surely as the Lord lives' even as they once taught My people to swear by Baal - then they will be established among My people. But if any nation does not listen, I will completely uproot and destroy it,' declares the Lord" (Jeremiah 12:14-17).

You see Negashi, the issue of Jew/Christian IS very important.

Before Islam invaded the Holy Lands claiming them in the name of THEIR God Allah, the Jews/Christians lived in struggle under the Romans. (For that fact under several other tyrant occupiers throughout time).

All that became was the replacement of one occupier (Romans) to a new one (Muslims).

So I ask you again. Who is the occupied and who is the occupier??

The Jews took back the land they’d lived on for thousands of years.

It was the Muslims that invaded and laid claim to a land that, even in their own Holy Book doesn’t receive any noteworthy attention.

Are you even aware that Jerusalem, a city Muslims claim as their 3^rd holiest of holies, isn’t even mentioned in the Koran?
Yep, Muslims claim that Jerusalem is SO IMPORTANT, yet not even ONE TIME is Jerusalem mentioned!

Jerusalem is mentioned 823 time, by name in the Bible, 669 of them are in the Old Testament, and 154 times in the New Testament. Yet not ONCE in the Koran.

Now I ask you to whom is the highest regard of the Holy Land and Jerusalem given?

Those that claim it as the one and ONLY site holy to them, (the Jews) or those that claim it as a 3^rd place adventure not worthy of mention in the Koran? (the Muslims)

You speak of propaganda “against” the Arabs/Muslims and relate it to the Nazi’s? Do you even realize Muslims claim the holocaust never even happened? Muslim propaganda is simple… claim to be the victim in all places, all the time!

You say I’m “turning stones” to justify Jewish occupation?

No, I’m simply telling the truth and you don’t like it because somewhere along the line you decided that Israelis were wrong in defending themselves from the continuous onslaught wrought on them by Muslims.

War is not an easy thing.
War is not a pretty thing.
War is the most barbaric acts man can commit.
But nonetheless, war is sometimes the only option given.
If no other option exist but war, then fight to win at all cost, because defeat has no mercy.

Selam

Yes,AMGI,  I hope no misquote. Your justification for the killing of the children is your accusation that they are brought up on hatred which goes the same to the Israeli from their neighbor side?

Thus, you concluded "Israeli are simply killing future homicide" LINK when you repeated it

Listen what I say for good; NO JUSTIFICATION FOR KILLING OF CHILDREN . Even if your claim were true that 37 QANA children used to hate Israel, do you think that would justify murder?

I don't think that you read my post throughly, I am not Japanese , you are not from [Kuwait] either? But I could have said a lot of what you said issues related with Japan but in the right time and right place.Now let us save these children!!!!!

NO JUSTIFICATION FOR KILLING OF CHILDREN . Agree??

Selam

Tell Hezbollah, not me.

Israel has given warning after warning for them (non-combatants) to leave the area of conflict, and for whatever reasons they don't.

Now, because they've delayed, leaving is very difficult at best.

I agree that one would hope children would not be used as shields or propaganda material.
One would hope that children would not be taught to hate and dress up like little homicide bombers.

War will always take innocent lives, and the only way to stop it is through negociations.

But that being said, those negociations HAVE TO BE honest and constructive on both sides of the coin.

Yeah,sure thing,of course what a Hezbollah supporter in Qana says about Hezbollah can be nothing more than truth.Of course,now i am totally convinced that the Hezbollah did not use Qana´s houses for shooting missiles on Israel.

But what to do with dozens of photos Israel presented?These photos were already shown on CNN,and on them it´s very well seen how the luancher enters the garage of one of such houses.Can you help me answer this wuestion,Cyberer?

I didnt see the pictures on cnn..

But to be perfectly honest about the whole problem in Lebanon..I question Israel motives. I think as many do, Israel is only interested in expanding Israel. A greater Israel.. with the evidence Israel gives about bombing resistance fighters and not so much civilians...How do we explain all the red cross ambulances being bombed..They are clearly marked.? The u.n. post? The busses and cars on the highway? Every time Israel says..oopss, a mistake or there were resistance fighters in the area....Were there resistance fighters on the Lebanon beach when Israel bombed the women and kids, before this war started?

I think we are about to see a new day in the mid east and Arab world. The muslim and Arab countries can not count on fair play from any other country, the u.n. have become usless to stop the violence. The u.s. and Israel are just running rough shot over all the Arab countrys. u.s. and brits want oil and control over the mid east..Israel wants to expand Israel...The rest of the world including the u.n. dont have the balls to do anything about it..

The Arab and muslim only hope, seeing as they cant count on anyone  but themselves is...get nukes and weapons..FAST.. that is the only way to keep israel and u.s. at bay. I think this Lebanon war has opened a lot of Arab eyes as to what they have to do....(1) get nukes (2) stick together more.

So far the u.s. have been able to keep Arab countrys from getting weapons to defend themselves..The u.s. as well as Israel wants every country defenseless in the Mid east, so israel can steal land and expand. and  u.s. wants them defenseless so they can steal oil.

 Get nukes fast Arabs....if you are to survive.

Neturei Karta opposed the establishment of and retain all opposition to the existence of the so-called "State of Israel"!

Neturei-Karta is the Aramaic term for "Guardians of the City. The name Neturei-Karta originates from an incident in which R. Yehudah Ha-Nassi (Rabbi Judah the Prince) sent R. Hiyya and R. Ashi on a pastoral tour of inspection. In one town they asked to see the "guardians of the city" and the city guard was paraded before them. They said that these were not the guardians of the city but its destroyers, which prompted the citizens to ask who, then, could be considered the guardians. The rabbis answered, "The scribes and the scholars," referring them to Tehillim (Psalms) Chap. 127. (Jerusalem Talmud, Tractate Hagiga. 76c).

The name was given to a group of Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem who refused (and still refuse) to recognize the existence or authority of the so-called "State of Israel" and made (and still make) a point of publicly demonstrating their position, the position of the Torah and authentic unadulterated Judaism.

The group was founded in Jerusalem, Palestine in 1938, splitting off from Agudas Yisroel. Agudas Yisroel was established in 1912 for the purpose of fighting Zionism. Gradually lured by money and honor they sold out to the "Golden-Calf" (see Exodus, XXXII) of Zionism. Those who wanted to maintain their faith and continue the struggle against Zionism, dissociated themselves from Agudas Yisroel and associated parties.

Over the years, a number of Neturei Karta activists and followers settled outside of Palestine. Some of the reasons that these individuals abandoned the country in which they and their families had lived for many generations (having lived there many years prior to the establishment of the illegitimate so-called "State of Israel") include; ideological refusal to live under the illegitimate heretical "Israeli" regime, them being exiled by the Zionist government for their insistence of remaining independent of the illegitimate heretical regime or them being unable to live a normal family life due to them and their families being persistently harassed, repeatedly incarcerated and many times even physically tortured by the Zionist police and agents. This dispersion resulted in the emergence of various Neturei Karta establishments on the broader international scene. These establishments include synagogues, educational institutions, publishing houses and organizations. The establishments in New York include three synagogues in Brooklyn (Boro Park and Williamsburg), three upstate, and organizations include the Friends of Jerusalem in NY, NY.

Neturei Karta is not - as is often alleged - a small sect or an extremist group of "ultra-orthodox" Jews. The Neturei Karta have added nothing to nor have they taken anything away from the written and oral law of the Torah as it is expressed in the Halacha and the Shulchan Aruch. The Neturei Karta are fighting the changes and inroads made by political Zionism during the past one-hundred odd years. Guided by the rabbis of our time and under the inspiring leadership of the late Reb Amram Blau, the Neturei Karta refuse to recognize the right of anyone to establish a "Jewish" state during the present period of exile.

There are those who wish to play down the Neturei Karta and its' Torah-true beliefs. This has been attempted many a time by stating that the Neturei Karta is a minority group and that compared to other Jewish groups the Neturei Karta aren't even noticeable in terms of number.

The name Neturei Karta is a name usually given to those people who regularly pray in the Neturei Karta synagogues (Torah Ve'Yirah Jerusalem, Torah U'Tefillah London, Torah U'Tefillah NY, Beis Yehudi Upstate NY, etc.), study in or send their children to educational institutions run by Neturei Karta, or actively participate in activities, assemblies or demonstrations called by the Neturei Karta. Although it is true that the number of families which could be classified as Neturei Karta members or activists per-se is relatively small (several thousand), the number of Orthodox Jews who believe in the anti-Zionist ideology which Neturei Karta is known for, number in the hundreds of thousands.

Neturei Karta oppose the so-called "State of Israel" not because it operates secularly, but because the entire concept of a sovereign Jewish state is contrary to Jewish Law.

All the great rabbis who in accordance with Jewish Law opposed Zionism at its inception did not do so merely due to consideration of the secular lifestyles of the then Zionist leaders or even for their opposition to Torah heritage and rejection of its values and practices, but due to the fact that the entire concept of a Jewish state is in direct conflict with a number of Judaism's fundamentals.

Condemnation of and segregation from anything connected to or affiliated with the so-called modern day "State of Israel" is based on the Talmud, the key fundamental doctrine of the Oral Tradition handed down by G-d to Moses on Mt. Sinai. The Talmud in Tractate Kesubos (p. 111a), teaches that Jews shall not use human force to bring about the establishment of a Jewish state before the coming of the universally accepted Moshiach (Messiah from the House of David). Furthermore it states that we are forbidden to rebel against the nations and that we should remain loyal citizens and we shall not attempt to leave the exile which G-d sent us into, ahead of time.

Jews are not allowed to dominate, kill, harm or demean another people and are not allowed to have anything to do with the Zionist enterprise, their political meddling and their wars.

Neturei Karta forbid any participation with the so-called "State of Israel" or any of its subsidiaries. Neturei Karta followers do not participate in "Israeli" elections nor do they accept any aid from "Bituach Le'Umi" (Social Security), and the educational institutions of the Neturei Karta reject any form of financial support from the so-called "Va'ad HaYeshivos" (equiv. to Department of Education).

The Zionist state employs a set of chief rabbis and uses religious parties to ornament their state with a clerical image. They study the Torah with commentaries altered to clothe the words with nationalistic nuances. Our rabbis have countless times proclaimed that it matters little which individuals or parties govern in the Zionist state because the very establishment and existence of the state itself is to be condemned and to be deplored.

The true Jews remain faithful to Jewish belief and are not contaminated with Zionism.

The true Jews are against dispossessing the Arabs of their land and homes. According to the Torah, the land should be returned to them.

Neturei Karta deplore the systematic uprooting of ancient Jewish communities by the Zionists, the shedding of Jewish and non-Jewish blood for the sake of Zionist sovereignty and the Neturei Karta favor a peaceful transition from the present Zionist rule to a non-Zionist entity.

According to Judaic Law the Torah has the last word. There is no such thing as a majority of Jews who happen to be Jewish by birth who can alter Torah Law in any way. In fact even the greatest rabbi or as Maimonides writes, "even the greatest prophet" [referring actually to an authentic prophet], has no right to distort or amend even one letter of the Torah.

Rabbi Blau stated shortly before his death that the acceptance by the United Nations of the Zionist state as a member state constituted a grave injustice to the Jewish people. Neturei Karta hope that this great error will be corrected at the earliest opportunity. The Neturei Karta regret that the Zionist state has usurped the holy name of Israel and that the Zionists so often pretend to speak in the name of the Jewish people and assume the right to act on our behalf. Only those rabbis who have not been affected or influenced by the poison of Zionism, can be considered the spiritual leaders of today's Jewry.

The world must know that the Zionists have illegitimately seized the name Israel and have no right to speak in the name of the Jewish people!

Again the same article copy and paste!!!

Once again IRRELEVANT, refarain from such hollow propoganda.You am

We are not discussing about "Zionism nor Judaism" if you are one of them then you have to bring and show your role in saving the poor.And I think you better say this loudly in Israel, and tell those who are exporting armuries to the zionist to kill the innocents otherwise refrain from hollow propogande.This is Islamic site and more aware of what you are talking.If you are here to cheat I tell you are simply killing  them you don't know them.Take it to where it works

Selam