And here makes for some interesting reading as well.

http://www.islamonline.net/discussione/thread.jspa?threadID=7948

God could not possibly be so confused.  Somewhere men must have corrupted the Quran to eliminate all Truths except those in the favor of the Arabians through the claimed inheritance of Ishmael... and in doing so, was necessary to also invalidate all other Words of God.

The Spirit of Truth confirms otherwise!!  Enjoy the reading.... and may your eyes open to the Truth.

Regards

ND, it seems that with this reference you are implying that Muslims must follow the "New Testament" according to what Allaah Says in His Qur'aan and you provided some verses which you claim "proves" your point.

As I stated in this post;

"Claims can either be proven true or false based on facts. And essentially, something remains a claim until such time that it is proven with facts. In order to truly come to a conclusion on any matter with true justice, then one must present all of the evidence and facts, which pertain to that particular issue."

Have you presented all of the evidence and facts in order to come to your conclusion? I certainly would be happy to help you!

Indeed Allaah is never confused, far above be He above such a notion.

Indeed it is only those among mankind who do not understand that wander around in confusion because they refuse to understand.

Or as you may say, they close their eyes to the Truth!

[6:109-1110] "And they swear their strongest oaths by Allaah, that if there came to them a sign, they would surely believe therein. Say: 'Signs are but with Allaah' and what will make you (Muslims) perceive that (even) if it (the sign) came, they will not believe? And We shall turn their hearts and their eyes away (from guidance), as they refused to believe therein for the first time, and We shall leave them in their trespass to wander blindly."

Islaamic,

James 3:14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.

Thank you for your post here; it proves some unreconciliable contradictions of the Quran.  This must be the work of man; because God does not give unreconciliable truths.  The verses you provided prove errors through contradictions, as it is called "God's religion."  Every true and sincere believer knows that God is not the author of confusion.  Clearly here; the works of man, their corruption is shown in the Quran.... spreading seeds of division and confusion; rather than for the love of God and edification to believers.

In the Quran, one could easily be distracted from God by spending their entire lives trying to understand and reconcile so many contradictions in scriptures.  It is therefore vital for true believers to adbere and trust the Holy Spirit of God in order to weed through the commandments of men and the Word of God.

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’^[d] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

003.003 YUSUFALI: It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

005.046  PICKTHAL: And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil).

002.004 PICKTHAL: And who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter.

002.005 YUSUFALI: They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.

Yet, according to many Muslims, that which was revealed "before thee" [the Prophet], is corrupted even that the Quran says the those who believe in that which was revealed before the Prophet are certain of the Hereafter.   BUT, one cannot believe it and the Quran at the same time because it is so full of contradictions.

John 7:16 Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17 If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.

1 Corrinthians 14:2 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

Revelation 19:10  And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

Regards

Is this an example of the princple of naskh?

xtian_imam wrote:

Indeed. It the teachings of men who have no authority from Allaah found in the New Testament have been Rebuked and Corrected by Allaah in His Qur'aan.

The true believers are those who depend not on the sword to defend their religion but on God.

Did you know that the word sword appears 200 times in the Bible,and the word sword does not appear in the Quraan.

Nowhere in the Qur'aan does Allaah encourage violence. Violence is not the same as warfare or defending one's faith or nation.

Never the less, you asked. 

[16:126] "And if you punish (your enemy), then punish them with the like of that with which you were afflicted. But if you endure patiently, verily, it is better for As-Sabirin (the patient ones, etc.)."

Paul started his career prosecuting the Christians.  After the ressurection of Jesus and by GOD's grace Paul's life was changed.

Acts 22

   Then Paul said: 3"I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city. Under Gamaliel I was thoroughly trained in the law of our fathers and was just as zealous for God as any of you are today. 4I persecuted the followers of this Way to their death, arresting both men and women and throwing them into prison, 5as also the high priest and all the Council can testify. I even obtained letters from them to their brothers in Damascus, and went there to bring these people as prisoners to Jerusalem to be punished.

 6"About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. 7I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, 'Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?'

 8" 'Who are you, Lord?' I asked.

   " 'I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting,' he replied. 9My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me.

 10"'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked.
      "'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.' 11My companions led me by the hand into Damascus, because the brilliance of the light had blinded me.

Yes I am aware of Paul persecuting "Christians" (who actually were not even called Christians when he was persecuting them) and he was active in the stoning of Stephen.

Actually, Paul was an admitted imposter who only wanted to get people to follow him (and by doing so he would be removing them from the true teachings of Jesus, Peace and Blessings upon him).

Paul says this himself.

[1Corinthians 9:19-22] " For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some."

As for Paul's journey to Damascus, you can read my response to this below in my reply to ND.

iec- That is very interesting. 

For sure you mean this one:

Isa 2:4

4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares , and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
KJV

There is also this verse:

[Luke 22:35-38] "And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

Seems to me that in the New Testament, Jesus is ordering his followers to obtain swords to the point that they should sell the shirt off their back if necessary.

The verse from Isaiah is from the Old Testament.

[Luke 22:35-38] "And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

Seems to me that in the New Testament, Jesus is ordering his followers to obtain swords to the point that they should sell the shirt off their back if necessary.

The verse from Isaiah is from the Old Testament.

Nope.  You left out 37 of the 35-38 you wrote about which says the death with sword is what men use and will kill Jesus which will be done according to prophesy.  And your reference to Isaiah is the prophesy that Jesus will die with sinners.

37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors. For the things concerning Me have an end.” .......

and here Jesus tells his disciple to not use the sword and to even permit his death by them.  But how symbolic that the "high priest's right ear" was cut off.

49 When those around Him saw what was going to happen, they said to Him, “Lord, shall we strike with the sword?” 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest and cut off his right ear.

51 But Jesus answered and said, “Permit even this.” And He touched his ear and healed him.

Regards

P.S.  A partial truth is not the real truth.

Actually, the only error I can be accused of is that I wrote "35-38" rather than "35-36" which in fact are the two verses I quoted.

"You left out 37 of the 35-38 you wrote"

* Actually, I did not leave anything out. I did not even post verse 38, which is:

"38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough"

Do you see these words anywhere in my post?

A partial truth is not the real truth, indeed!

And if I understand you correctly, Jesus in the Bible tells his disciples to sell the shirts off their backs if needed in order to buy swords, just so he can later tell them not to use swords?

Is it possible that the Prophet became angry and then damned the Christians, Jews and all others and went on a war path to kill everyone who did not follow him after the writings that made up the Quran did not get added to the Bible as the Word of God?

What was the sudden change of heart towards everyone in the world that did not drop their faith, submit to and follow the Prophet?  The Quran speaks highly of the rest of believers and then they become the enemies of God?  What do you think caused this change of heart?

Regards

If a Word, claimed to be from God is True; it need not be forced upon all others by men.

The Thorn in the Flesh

   
2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

If Paul could rejoice in trials and prosecution; so can we.  In fact, if one's faith is true, these things only strengthen one's faith.   :)

Regards

I disagree because believing in Allaah cannot be forced upon others. Even if one proclaims to believe as a result of coersion, it is not truly belief, therefore it is impossible to force upon others.

And I thought we were talking about belief in Allaah here? How can you use Paul as a reference when he never even met Jesus and was not even born when Jesus departed this earth?

And if I am to understand this verse completely, then are you saying that according to the Bible, God sent revelation to Paul?

I used to post by combining verses from Allaah's Qur'aan as well as the Bible; however I have refrained from this recently since the Qur'aan suffices to dispute against anything! I may need to reconsider in order to respond to you though since you combine so often.

Never the less, from this verse from Corinthians that you have provided, one can only perceive that you believe Jesus' mission was insufficient and that 50 years later it would need to be changed.

I also noticed you posted below a verse from James which I will respond to soon inshaa Allaah, as one cannot believe in both the message of James and the message of Paul at the same time.

To Qonita,

And Qonita says;  ND, I did not expect you to understand because you chose to refuse to understand.

And what you refuse to understand is that submitting to Islam and the Prophet is not the same as submitting to God.  Even though I submit myself to God; it is not pleasing to "Muslims" because "some" of them insist instead that I/people/men submit to Islam and the Prophet whose bones can be found in a grave. 

But what the brother has written will be beneficial for muslims, insha Allah. You will not understand the Qur'an because you refuse to understand.

How can it be beneficial for Muslims to be taught that all others are unbelievers, prejudism, judgment and encouraging violence and prosecution against all others.  Where is the love of God taught by Jesus whom you claim to love?

Perhaps what you think is good for Muslims is not what God thinks is good for Muslims.  And God knows best!

Maybe it is time for you to accept this stance; to you what you believe, and to us ours.

I have no problem with this stance; but apparently it is you who does have a problem with it.  This is supposed to be a "Interfaith discussion" forum isn't it?  When it becomes the stance that you believe what I want you to believe or you will be moderated or should leave... it is exactly what you say Islam is not; a religion of peace that does not force itself upon others.

We are all brothers and sisters under God to me; despite that some refuse to hear the Living Word and join the entire family of God. 

Regards

And to Islaamic...

Hi Islaamic

I disagree because believing in Allaah cannot be forced upon others.

This is rather odd hearing this come from you and if you really believe this then you cannot possibly believe in the doctrine of Islam; because this is exactly what it does, attempt for force belief in God (according to the Quran) upon others. 

However, this is what I said which is very different from your disagreement:  "If a Word, claimed to be from God is True; it need not be forced upon all others by men."

I said if a Word is the Truth, it does not need to be forced upon others by men.  In other words, if the Quran is the Truth, then allow men to see the truth for themselves (and those who truly love and trust God will know it is the truth) INSTEAD of forcing it upon men as the truth (through the laws of men claimed to be from God) or allowing the threat of killing them (in the Quran) should men choose not to follow this "doctrine."  If it is the Truth, then true believers will follow it out of love for God and not out of force and fear.

Even if one proclaims to believe as a result of coersion, it is not truly belief, therefore it is impossible to force upon others.

Exactly! And if someone follows the religion of their ancesters because of force and tradition; then it is not true and free choice.

And I thought we were talking about belief in Allaah here? How can you use Paul as a reference when he never even met Jesus and was not even born when Jesus departed this earth?  And if I am to understand this verse completely, then are you saying that according to the Bible, God sent revelation to Paul?

We are talking about faith in God here.  Paul DID get speak to Jesus and whether he was born whether Jesus was ON EARTH manifested in the flesh matters not.  Jesus is still alive and well today in the spirit however, could manifest himself in the flesh should he choose to just as he did AFTER his death on earth.  Paul was a Roman Soldier, named Saul, who prosecuted Christians.  He became a believer and stopped prosecuting the Christians and because everyone feared him as Saul, his name was changed to Paul.

Acts 9:1 Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”

5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”

Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”

6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?” Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

7 And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. 8 Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

10 Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, “Ananias.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.”

11 So the Lord said to him, “Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. 12 And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.”

13 Then Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name.”

15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”

17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.
19 So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus.

And the story of Paul's calling continues...

Never the less, from this verse from Corinthians that you have provided, one can only perceive that you believe Jesus' mission was insufficient and that 50 years later it would need to be changed.

Jesus' mission was not changed.  I do not know what you are talking about.

I also noticed you posted below a verse from James which I will respond to soon inshaa Allaah, as one cannot believe in both the message of James and the message of Paul at the same time.

Why would you say this?  :)

Regards

my reply to you.
"And what you refuse to understand is that submitting to Islam and the Prophet is not the same as submitting to God."

That's your opinion, ND. 
As for muslims, suffice is what Allah Our Lord has told us in the Qur'an, and what Allah's Messenger (salallahu alahi wassalam) said in authentic hadith.

“It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad  (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)) with guidance and the religion of truth (islam), to make it superior over all religions, even though the Mushrikoon (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allaah) hate (it).”
[al-Tawbah 9:33]

“And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:85]

The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: “By Him in Whose hand is the life of Muhammad, he who amongst the community of Jews or Christians hears about me, but does not affirm his belief in that with which I have been sent and dies in this state (of disbelief), he shall be but one of the denizens of Hell-Fire.”

"Even though I submit myself to God; it is not pleasing to "Muslims" because "some" of them insist instead that I/people/men submit to Islam and the Prophet whose bones can be found in a grave."

Well, ND. When I submit to Allah, believing with all of my heart and mind that I am upon the truth, I do not worry whether it will be pleasing to others or not. Its His pleasure only that I seek.
But you are right if what you means is that those who reject Allah's Messenger Muhammad (salallahu alaihi wassalam) and His Word the Qur'an will never be regarded as believers by muslims as has been proven above.

You speak in deregatory manner about the Prophet, but he is Allah's Messenger to us,  he was given full authority by Allah to teach His Religion to mankind.
“It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad  (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)) with guidance and the religion of truth (islam), to make it superior over all religions, even though the Mushrikoon (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allaah) hate (it).” [al-Tawbah 9:33]

"How can it be beneficial for Muslims to be taught that all others are unbelievers, prejudism, judgment and encouraging violence and prosecution against all others.  Where is the love of God taught by Jesus whom you claim to love?"

Sorry ND, you sound like confused again.
It is indeed beneficial for muslims to read material that insha Allah will affirm and strengthen their belief that the way to salvation is only found in Islam. I know for a fact that some missionaries do try to deceive gullible  muslims by saying that Qur'an support the idea that the Jews, Christians and Sabians are 'other believers', using that two verses. That claim has been proven untrue. Alhamdulillah.

"Perhaps what you think is good for Muslims is not what God thinks is good for Muslims.  And God knows best!"

Alhamdulillah, Allah Our Lord did not let us make  guessworks about what is good or bad. He -subhanahu wata'ala-- gave us The Criterion to distinguish the truth from  falsehood, the good from bad, the right way from the wrong ones, as well as things that will earn His Pleasure from things that will invoke His Anger. Allah did not let us alone without guidance, He sent his messenger Muhammad salallahu alaihi wassalam and His Word the Qur'an as guidance and light for mankind. What a blessing.

"I have no problem with this stance; but apparently it is you who does have a problem with it.  This is supposed to be a "Interfaith discussion" forum isn't it?" 

Well ND, in my opinion you seem to mistakenly think that this Interfaith discussion in this Islamic forum is a place for you to preach your belief to muslims. From some posts or thread of yours that I read, it seem to me that you are not here to have discussion. In many posts you do not even recognize what muslims believe, let alone respecting it. But alhamdulillah, subhanAllah, the more the non-muslims preach the more we can see the truth in what Allah has said about those who reject His Ayaat! SubhanAllah.

I prefer the interfaith forum like it used to be in the past, when some of Non-muslims posters here were those who sincerely wanted to learn Islam and wanted to know what muslims belief. Alhamdulillah in the past there were some non-muslims who had been guided to Islam through the forum then. But if the forum continue to be like it is now, I highly doubt that non-muslims who sincerely want to learn islam will choose this forum, because it is full of non-muslims attacking Islam and preaching their own belief. This is why I asked the moderator in some of my posts about the purpose of this interfaith forum, but unfortunately I saw no reply. Well this is their forum anyway, but I would like to know where this interfaith forum is heading to.

"We are all brothers and sisters under God to me; despite that some refuse to hear the Living Word and join the entire family of God. "

Well, indeed we are all human being, we are all creation of Allah, and muslims too are told to treat other well. However we are firm in our belief and will not compromise our faith, no matter what. For example, we belief that the one who reject Allah's message is not us.

Indeed Allah knows best! May He guide you and us to His right path.

Salam

Hello ND.

Firstly, you again make claim after claim with no basis whatsoever.

You also seem to switch the topic pretty quickly! :)

Never the less, you now went on to claim "contradictions" and "corruption" etc. in the Qur'aan, and rest assured this is not something you would want to get into because in  the end it will be abundantly clear exactly which book contains the contradictions.

And this time you simply made these claims without even a shred of evidence, claiming that the verse I provided "proved contradictions"?!?

Really now!?

Then you went on using ambiguous language like "this must be the work of man" and "somewhere men must have corrupted"...

Oh must it now? :)

Sister Qonita has responded sufficiently, may Allaah Reward her and I will simply add a few things:

1). As Muslims, we submit to Allaah. The word that carries the definition of submitting to Allaah is Islaam.

To submit to Allaah means to believe, accept and follow everything that Allaah Commands us to believe, accept and follow.

2). The teachings of Islaam are completely contrary to your distorted claims of "prejudism, judgement and encouraging violence and prosecution against all others."

Now you might copy and paste some verses or parts of some verses which you feel prove your point; however I will simply post one verse where Allaah Says (translated):

[60:8] "Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity."

I guess this also addresses your issues about "love of God".

And to further emphasize this:

[2:195] "Truly, Allah loves the good-doers."

[3:76] "Allah loves those who are pious."

[3:159] "Allah loves those who put their trust (in Him)."

[5:42] "Allah loves those who act justly."

And inddeed as Muslims we love Allaah and we are slaves to Him; however He has no need for our love. He is free of all needs and it is we who need Him.

Again, my sister has clearly responded with the truth and I simply wished to add the above words in support of her and as further clarification for you.

 Now, onto your response to me. :)

"you cannot possibly believe in the doctrine of Islam; because this is exactly what it does, attempt for force belief in God (according to the Quran) upon others."

* And from where do you get this? What you say in fact makes no sense because Islaam does not need any force for people to accept it. People naturally are drawn to it and people naturally are attracted to it because it is the natural way of mankind and it is how every human being is born (i.e in the state of Islaam). They recognize it and they feel it in their hearts.

Today, there is no "force" going on. Today, Muslims may perhaps be in the most pitiful state of our history; yet Islaam remains by far and wide the most reverted to Religion in the world, especially the Western world.

So who is forcing them?

People claim "Islaam oppresses women", yet the majority of reverts to Islaam are women.

It is as Allaah Says it is (translated):

[2:256] "There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right (Path of) Guidance has become distinct from the wrong path." 

It is against man's logic and spiritual instinct to believe in God becoming man or God being three in one and one in three etc. In order to accept this, one needs to blindly believe and accept, while Allaah expects us to use our minds, intellect and natural instincts to understand without doubt that He is our Lord.

Furthermore, how can your claim possibly be true when Allaah Tells us that Guidance can only come from Him, and we can do nothing in this regard?

[2:272] "Not upon you is their guidance, but Allah guides whom He wills."

[3:20] "And say to those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and to those who are illiterates (Arab pagans): 'Do you (also) submit yourselves (to Allah in Islam)?' If they do, they are rightly guided; but if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message; and Allah is All-Seer of (His) slaves."

Therefore, how is it that you can say you find it "odd" and from where do you get this "killing"? Again ND, one can easily make any claims they wish and you seem to wish alot!

Men (and mostly women) indeed see the Truth of Islaam for themselves everyday. They do not need to be duped, deceived or bribed into accepting Islaam.

"Exactly! And if someone follows the religion of their ancesters because of force and tradition; then it is not true and free choice."

* I partly agree and partly disagree. Following something because of force is totally different than following something because of tradition.

As Allaah Says (translated):

[2:170] "When it is said to them: 'Follow what Allah has sent down.' They say: 'Nay! We shall follow what we found our fathers following.' (Would they do that!) Even though their fathers did not understand anything nor were they guided?"

[5:104] "And when it is said to them: 'Come to what Allah has revealed and unto the Messenger.' They say: 'Enough for us is that which we found our fathers following,' even though their fathers had no knowledge whatsoever and no guidance.

[9:23] "O you who believe! Take not for supporters and helpers your fathers and your brothers if they prefer disbelief to Belief. And whoever of you does so, then he is one of the wrong-doers."

[31:21] "And when it is said to them: 'Follow that which Allah has sent down', they say: 'Nay, we shall follow that which we found our fathers (following).' (Would they do so) even if Shaytan (Satan) invites them to the torment of the Fire."

"Paul DID get speak to Jesus and whether he was born whether Jesus was ON EARTH manifested in the flesh matters not."

* How can it "matters not"?

You then went on the quote the story of Paul's journey to Damascus, and it is interesting that you mention this.

You quoted from Acts chapter 9 where it says;

7 And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one.

If we look further on in Acts to chapter 22, the same story of Paul's journey to Damascus is narrated and in chapter 22 it says;

9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

* So which is it? In one version of the story, the men with Paul heard a voice but saw nothing, and in another version of the story, the men with Paul this time didn't hear a voice but saw the light.

Later on in Acts, chapter 26, the same story of Paul's journey to Damascus is narrated yet again for the third time. In Acts chapter 9 it says that the men with Paul "stood speechless". In Acts 26 however it says they all fell to the earth;

14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

So which is it? I recall you saying that "God could not possibly be so confused." and "irreconcilable contradictions" (one of countless contradictions by the way).

And finally as for the message of James VS. the message of Paul, then it kind of goes along with what I meant when I said that believing that Jesus gave "revelation" to Paul means that Jesus' mission was not complete when he departed this earth (Peace and Blessings upon him).

First of all, in Acts chapter 21, it is referring to James accusing Paul of turning his back on Moses and omitting the law.

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

Paul's religion goes on to say;

Romans 3:20  Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

And Paul also says that the law is a curse!

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law.

Now when we look to James on the other hand:

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

and who is this "vain man" James is referring to? Is it a general reference or a specific reference?

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

And attributed to Jesus it says:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Matthew 16:27 ...and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

John 8:39  They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Jesus scolds the Jews:

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law...

So this is what I mean when I said that one cannot believe both the message of James and the message of Paul at the same time.

The message of Jesus (Peace and Blessings upon him) is and always was far removed from being one and the same as the message of Paul.

Interesting notion about "no respect". Particularly your mentioning Jews and Christians together!

How much was Jesus (Peace and Blessings upon him) respected by Jews?

What do the Jews claim about Jesus (Peace and Blessings upon him)? and what do they say about his "self-esteem"?

What do Jews say about the Message that Jesus brought (Peace and Blessings upon him)?

How do Jews feel about the New Testament? How do they feel about "The Bible"?

Jesus (Peace and Blessings upon him) has much more in common than you obviously fail to perceive with Prophet Muhammad (Peace and Blessings upon him).

In fact this is the case with all Prophets of Allaah (Peace and Blessings upon them).

[5:59] "Say: 'O People of the Scripture! do you criticize us for no other reason than that we believe in Allaah, and in (the revelation) which has been sent down to us and in that which has been sent down before (us), and that most of you are rebellious sinners?'"

Jesus (Peace and Blessings upon him) has much more in common than you obviously fail to perceive with Prophet Muhammad (Peace and Blessings upon him).

Jesus taught:  Love God with all your heart, soul and mind and to love your neighbor as yourself.  Jesus' sword is the Word of God which brings abundant life to man.  Jesus said his Kingdom is of God and is not of this world.  Jesus is the Living Word of God and his body cannot be found in a grave but is alive in this Kingdom of God.

The Prophet taught:  Believe in Allah and the Prophet or you deserve to die. The Prophet's sword brought death and destruction.  The Prophet and/or the Quran is busy setting up his kingdom; on earth (laws, lands, religious power and authority to kill over all).  The Prophet is a man whose body can be found in a grave.

[5:59] "Say: 'O People of the Scripture! do you criticize us for no other reason than that we believe in Allaah, and in (the revelation) which has been sent down to us and in that which has been sent down before (us), and that most of you are rebellious sinners?'"

People of the scripture do not criticize Muslims because they believe in "Allaah" but because they claim Allaah has put them in authority over all other men in the world and threaten men with fear of death if they do not "submit" to them. 

Submitting by force or fear to Islam does not make one submit to God.

Indeed we believe in Allah, His messengers and His Books. We believe in whatever Allah has commanded us to believe. We believe in Prophet Muhammad (salallahu alaihi wassalam) as we believe in Prophet 'Iysa (alaihi salam) and Prophet Moses (alaihi salam). Alhamdulillah.

So, its indeed rather weird, those who do not believe in Prophet Muhammad and the Qur'an and Islam, yet using verses from the Qur'an to claim that they are too believers.

Hello again Qonita,

Yet you do not believe IN Jesus; but instead believe he existed as a historical outdated prophet whom the Prophet Muhammad replaced with contradictory messages.  No one needs to use the Quran in claiming to be a believer and you know this!  Your Muslim brother used the Quran as a sword against all other believers and yet, I provided the contradictory word, which makes both contradictory sides clearly questionable.  You can expect others to defend the faith you and others are trying to desecrate, when Muslims post such a thread using the Quran to say that only Muslims are believers!  So why do you find it “rather weird” for others to use the same scriptures in doing so?

What is even stranger is for the Quran to praise the scriptures, confirm it then later call the same scriptures corrupt!  Why do you suppose the Prophet or God would have such a change of heart?  Why does the Prophet deny the Living Word of God spoken by Jesus, deny his divinity, authority and fulfillment of prophecy?  One cannot disregard the Truth given by Jesus in The Word, deny and reject his authority and divinity, and try to make it void while replacing it with another controversial and contradictory writings, and know and love Jesus.  Jesus said:

Matthew 10:33  But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.

It is even further very contradictory for Muslims to deny the authority and divinity of Jesus and his Word of God through the scriptures and yet use the very same scriptures they claim is corrupt to try and prove the Prophet’s authority and divinity through the prophesies in the Bible to claim they are foretelling, him, instead of Jesus, even though it was Jesus who was born of God’s Holy Spirit (not of an Angel) by the Will of God.  The very same Abrahamic scriptures of the Christian and Jews that Muslims and the Quran claim are corrupt are the very scriptures that Muslims use to confirm the Prophet of the Quran.

The Christian and Jewish scriptures appears to be considered corrupt when the Quran contradicts the very Word of God that was confirmed by many Godly men that came before the Quran.  Yet these same “corrupted” scriptures are used by Muslims to confirm the authority and divinity of the Prophet himself; in which case it is then not corrupt when Muslims claim the prophesies of the one to come are none other than Prophet. 

One cannot truthfully promote scriptures as Godly in prejudice against other believers, hatred, war and bloodshed claiming it is the Word of God to supersede and abrogate the confirmed Word of God that came before it which speaks against prejudice, hatred, war and bloodshed in the True Word of God while claiming it true and then denying its Truth.  Clearly this shows error.

It appears to me that the Prophet spoke highly of the scriptures and other believers until they did not change their Books of guidance (perhaps to add the words of the Prophet to the Bible as to “seal himself of prophets”), drop their faith, void the Words of Christ and follow this new contradictory version of religion.  Suddenly he goes on a warpath and the same praised scriptures suddenly became corrupt and peoples become “unbelievers.”

Of course, you could not expect people to throw away the Word of God, specifically the Torah and Bible, given to multiple prophets, Godly men and witnesses over thousands of years in order to follow “one man,” claiming himself to be a Prophet of God, replacing the entire Word of God and spiritual wisdom given to men… with his revelations, revealed without a single witness in private by supernatural beings.

In religious history of the Abrahamic faiths; no prophets superseded or voided the word that came before it.  However, the New Covenant (promise) to man came in the “New Testament” from God through Jesus and Apostles of God.  Even then the Old Testament is still to be used, not voided, and we are to learn from mistakes, learn what is Godly and un-Godly behavior, etc. of this past religious history.  However, it appears that man attempted to do away with the Living Word of God by rejecting the divinity, authority and love of God through Jesus in the Quran and/or by the Prophet.  God would not deny or make void His own Words!  

Do you realize how mad this sounds to even suggest people dump the Word of God spoken through many, many prophets and witnesses to follow ONE man and his new religion; claiming to supersede and do away with the Ten Commandments of God given to Moses, the righteousness of Abraham, the prophesies of Isaiah, Daniel, etc. and the Living Word of God through Jesus written that contain many, many witnesses of the testimonies of God written over thousands of years.   One can only imagine why men would attempt to do such a thing.

Further, men would have to deny their own recorded religious history for hearsay and literally “submit” themselves to the “Prophet” or be threatened to be killed.  The Jews’ synagogues and Christian churches would be shut down and replaced with Mosques.   Could you really thing that this is God’s plan?  God blessed both the Jews and Arabs through the brothers Isaac and Ishmael and instead of appreciating the blessings of God, glorifying God, and showing the love of God amongst each other; this Arab movement by the Prophet wanted not only the God given blessings of the Arabians but also the God given blessings of the Jews as well as authority OVER the Body of Christ.

Greed, hatred and anger always lead men to consequences and we see this even to this day.  It is sad that children are caught up in the hatred preached against all others outside Islam and are paying the consequences of their earlier generations.  Generation after generation is taught to hate Christians, Jews and other believers and to make war with them.  It doesn’t have to be this way; Jesus warned men to put down the sword or die with it!  Care about the welfare of children and their children and end this religious holocaust in the name of religion.  Men have been thoroughly warned by the Living Word of God of the consequences that follow if you choose the path of bloodshed and war against all others, instead of love and peace.

Hebrews 4:12  For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

No wonder he began to hate and make war with anyone who did not follow after him and especially the Christians and Jews because they interfered with the authority and plans of the Prophet (according to the Quran)….  Next Muslims will call a “Holy War” in the name of Islam and more innocent people will reap their ancesters consequences, of using a sword in the name of God.  But I am here to tell you, God did not command men to kill all others and that all others are not believers is a lie from the enemy of God to cause His people oppression, grief and death in the name of God. Jesus said put the sword down or die with it and he warned us: 

John 10:10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

If the Prophet did not intend to make “commandments of men as though they were doctrines of God” than men, have corrupted the Quran with their own desires; claiming it to be from the Prophet, thereby giving their own self-ordained authority to steal, kill and destroy, in the name of God.  Anyone who truly knows God, knows that this behavior comes from none other than the enemies of God, against the people of God.  And it is none other than the spirit of the Anti-Christ that Jesus full of the wisdom of God spoke about that was coming.

I know this post may seem unpleasant to you; but we should all consider all that is represented to us as being from God is really of God.  If it favors only one group of people in the entire world and causes harm and oppression to all others, believers included… this is a clear sign.  True Divine scripture should be to glorify God and for the edification of believers through the love of God for all men; not to apply to just a religious sect of men.  Simply to say; allah is God and worship and fear him alone (or be killed), allah knows all, and follow the Prophet of allah is not suffice and could not replace the Word of God which is food for our souls.

Further and most importantly, men need only to reach deep into their hearts and souls to begin to find God.  Trust in Him with sincerity, ask and let “God” do the leading, internally (not just externally), learn of the love of God given to mankind through the Divine Christ given to mankind. We are all one under the One True loving, merciful and forgiving God.  I am sorry if you find this insulting; it is meant to show the other side of the fence of which you dwell.  God is merciful and forgiving to Muslims and non-Muslims alike who truly seek Him and The Truth.

Ask, Seek, Knock

Matthew 7:7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

9"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?

[Which of you would put to death, kill (stone) your own son who truly seeks God (food) but does not follow the Prophet or Islam?]

May we seek, ask, knock and find… The Truth! 

Regards

P.S.  I am not against Muslims; I realize they are believers just like me but have chosen a different path.  We are all under the same One True God, irregardless of our religious titles or lack of them.  But, I am against the anti-Christ and violent jihad movement against all others in our world, outside of Islam, in the name of God.

P.S.S. You said: May Allah guide us and all who sincerely seek the truth to the straigth path.  Not all the paths to the truth are “straight.”

1 John 4:17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.

ND, My Muslim brother has spoken nothing but the truth, may Allah reward him. The explanation is clear walhamdulillah, there is no contradiction whatsoever. Look at how he destroyed your argument in another thread, when you used those two ayat of the Qur'an to claim that Qur'an says that the Jews and Christians are believers too. Yo cant deny.

Indeed any believing Muslim is not truly believer if they say that the nowadays Jews and Christians are believers too! Whether you like it or not, thats simply the fact.

ND, our belief in Allah's messengers will never be determined by anyone who worship one messenger (shirk that is) while rejecting another messenger of Allah and disobeying Allah. I believe in Prophet 'Iysa alaihi salam as Allah commanded us to believe, not and never will as you wish us to believe. Simple and clear. Allah knows better where He placed the Prophethood, Allah knows better whom He chose as Prophet to guide mankind.

Your rantings mean nothing, sorry to say.

“And (remember) when ‘Eesaa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), said: ‘O Children of Israel! I am the Messenger of Allaah unto you, confirming the Tawraat [(Torah) which came] before me, and giving glad tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad’” [al-Saff 61:6]

“O People of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allaah aught but the truth. The Messiah ‘Eesa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Mary) was (no more than) a Messenger of Allaah and His Word (‘Be!’ – and he was), which He bestowed on Maryam, and a spirit created by Him; so believe in Allaah and His Messengers. Say not: ‘Three (trinity)!’ Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allaah is (the only) One (God). Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allaah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of Affairs.” [al-Nisa’ 4:171]

Don't bother to preach to me ND, because the more you preach the more muslims can see the truth in Allah's Word when describing the disbelievers! SubhanAllah. Allah says (interpreted) :

“They (the disbelievers) want to extinguish Allaah’s Light with their mouths, but Allaah will not allow except that His Light should be perfected even though the disbelievers hate (it).”[al-Tawbah 9:32]

As for your sayings : "P.S.S. You said: May Allah guide us and all who sincerely seek the truth to the straigth path. Not all the paths to the truth are “straight.”

SubhanAllah. Look at this. You ask people to follow the path of those who went astray? Na'udzu billah. Allah subhanahu wata'ala taught muslims to ask for guidance to the straight path.

Al Fatihah (1:5-7) 5. You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything). 6. Guide us to the Straight Way. 7. The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).

You can be a believer too, though.

“O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Now has come to you Our Messenger (Muhammad ) explaining to you much of that which you used to hide from the Scripture and pass over (i.e. leaving out without explaining) much. Indeed, there has come to you from Allaah a light (Prophet Muhammad ) and a plain Book (this Qur’aan). Wherewith Allaah guides all those who seek His Good Pleasure to ways of peace, and He brings them out of darkness by His Will unto light and guides them to the Straight Way (Islamic Monotheism).” [al-Maa’idah 5:15-16]

So ND, bear witness that we are Muslims!

"Say (O Muhammad ): 'O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allaah (Alone), and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allaah.' Then, if they turn away, say: 'Bear witness that we are Muslims.'" [Aal 'Imraan 3:64]

Indeed all praise is due to Allah.

Message was edited by: Qonita

Hi Qonita,

I'll be short and direct.

The explanation is clear walhamdulillah, there is no contradiction whatsoever. Look at how he destroyed your argument in another thread, when you used those two ayat of the Qur'an to claim that Qur'an says that the Jews and Christians are believers too. Yo cant deny.

Clearly what was shown is there are contradictions in the Quran.  No argument destroyed.  Perhaps I will get back to that... but is pointless to me at this time.  I feel like I am arguing in circles when the Quran goes in both conflicting directions... I would rather use my energy elsewhere for now. :)

Indeed any believing Muslim is not truly believer if they say that the nowadays Jews and Christians are believers too! Whether you like it or not, thats simply the fact.

Ok... and this is where it becomes pointless.  I really had a hard time pushing myself through the rest.  Perhaps later!  :)

Regards

ND, I did not expect you to understand because you chose to refuse to understand.   But what the brother has written will be beneficial for muslims, insha Allah. You will not understand the Qur'an because you refuse to understand.

And just how is it "beneficial for muslims" to teach they are believers and all others are not?  How is it beneficial to spread prejudism and judgment?

Maybe it is time for you to accept this stance; to you what you believe, and to us ours.

This I have no problems with and has been that understanding since I came to IOL.  BUT, it is necessary that you folks on IOL have people who know the scriptures, the Living Word of God as spoken and taught by Jesus because otherwise you just do not understand it.  There are WAY to many misrepresentations and misunderstandings of the scriptures of Jesus and it necessary for Christians to help correct this.  Otherwise, they lead to no good.

Further, it is necessary for Christians to set the record straight on their faith as they are prosecuted by Muslims and are accused of all sorts of falsehoods.  It is necessary and right to expect them to correct it.

Believe it or not, it is not my point in sharing the Truth as spoken by Jesus to condemn or cram another religion down peoples throats, as I said, I am not promoting a religion but a more correct understanding of the very Words of Christ.  It is because I care about people knowing the truth here of the scriptures.  And it is necessary to correct these misrepresentations and misunderstandings for the benefit of all.

Regards

Hello ND, lets try again.

And just how is it "beneficial for muslims" to teach they are believers and all others are not? 

It has been answered above. Now tell me ND, if according to you muslims are believers, then how come you are not a muslim? Please answer, I am going to listen to you.  

"How is it beneficial to spread prejudism and judgment?"

Prejudism? Judgment? No. This is our knowledge, based on the Qur'an and hadith that we believe, about the only way to salvation. The only way that we believe to Him.

"This I have no problems with and has been that understanding since I came to IOL." 

You think you don't have a problem, but I think you do. Oh yes you do.

BUT, it is necessary that you folks on IOL have people who know the scriptures, the Living Word of God as spoken and taught by Jesus because otherwise you just do not understand it. 

The problem is ND, you want others to accept your version of truth as truth too. This lead to many problems. This topic is a perfect example.

Who are the true believers, ND?

If you say that believers are Christians only, or if you say that the jews, and sabians, and muslims are other believers, ok. Fine, we know what you believe, which we do not share.

Now its your turn to listen to our position. For muslims, true believers are muslims. Those who reject Allah's messenger Muhammad salallahu alaihi wassalam, reject His Word the Qur'an, and reject Islam as true religion of  Allah, do not fall into category believers.  You listen? We do not force this belief to you or others, ND, we simply state our belief.

Now tell me ND, can you now acknowledge our belief about the true believers? Please show me that you can now.

Salam

All who believe something are believers. End of debate.

The problem is that believing something or not is most often totally irrelevant to spirituality and in some cases an hindrance even, since we are mainly dealing with blind faith instead of wisdom.

To add insult to the injury, too many people accept the idiotic belief that if someone refuses to blindly believe an irrationality, he will be punished in the thereafter.

Verily, can human beings really sink so low on the stupidity scale?

"Au royaume des aveugles, les borgnes sont rois"

OK ND, lets continue.

I think when you come here you do not realize one thing; For most muslims, the most precious thing in their life is neither their possesion, nor family, or career etc, but its their faith. Please remember this.

You come here to 'correct our understanding about the Words of God etc,' but let me tell you, we believe we are upon the truth, and we believe that it is your understanding about the Word of God that need to be corrected.

I remember reading one old post of yours here, when you spoke to another Christian, you implied that for you muslims are religious victims, you feel the mercy for us and you feel the need to help those 'who are in the darkness into the light'.  Well thank you, but let me tell you, ND, for us, we have the light and guidance from Allah, alhamdulillah. We are on the path to salvation, and it is your belief who need to be corrected because it lead to no good.  So, because we care for you too, we offer the path to salvation to you too. Would you bear witness that there is no other god but Allah, and that Muhammad is His Messenger?     

You have a mission here and you say it out loud, and it seem to me that your mission is in conflict with the mission of this forum, and you show little respect to the mods and their rules. Hence the temporary moderation. Don't be confused, dear ND. I believe you can distinguish between Islam, Muslim, and an Islamic Discussion Forum.

I remember reading something like this from you long ago : "...Maybe I think too highly of myself in thinking that I can help make the difference,".... then let me tell you this dear ND;  you have a plan, Allah has a plan, and Allah is the best planner. 

May Allah guide you and us to the right path. Salam

NotDeceived wrote:

There is no doubt, the Quran is not from God. It is at the root of so much hatred, violence and terrorism that it cannot be from God.  Maybe, if you read the Bible, God would open your eyes to see His truth. Why does God bless Christians for believing the Bible and punish Muslims for believing the Quran? We can see that it is not Christians who are bombing churches and killing Christians for the Bible teaches we should forgive and not resort to violence. However, it is Muslims who are bombing mosques and killing Muslims for the Quran demands retribution and excuses violence in defense of Islam. Indeed, the true believers are those who are peaceful, forgiving and do not believe in an eye for an eye justice, just as Jesus teaches in the Gospels.

For a better understanding about the context of this thread, I think it is a good idea to bring ND's post here, the one in which a claim is made that :   People who follow Islam much understand that there are others, outside of followers of Islam who are also true believers and people of God.  Not only Muslims are considered righteous and will receive blessings, guidance and the Truth of God.

NotDeceived

Posts: 1,735
From: United States
Registered: 02/02/06 Re: #1 Most Important Righteousness is Against Religious Compulsion
Posted: 05/08/2007 02:04 ?   in response to: TARIKONLINE

     Reply

Hi Tarikonline,

Thanks for your examples and I will be glad to respond to each of what you represent in your post on "righteousness in Islam."  However, allow me to present to you a scripture of the Quran which I think is most important, basis, foundation and is above all other scriptures in the Quran when dealing with, respecting, living with, understanding and sharing faith with others.  That is having no compulsion in religion.  This verse clearly represent that others belong to God as well, even if they do not follow Islam.

True righteousness is the ability to see God in all others, not just respect and see those of a particular religion as being just and righteous according to God.... others also belong to God, even though they may not follow the religion of Islam, all err (even believers) and not all live in error (inside or outside of Islam). 

This is one of the foremost and most important beginning of understanding of righteousness in that it calls for having humbleness, meekness, truth, kindness and love of God towards others.  Anything other condemnation against other believers is but self-righteousness.

1). People who follow Islam much understand that there are others, outside of followers of Islam who are also true believers and people of God.  Not only Muslims are considered righteous and will receive blessings, guidance and the Truth of God 

002.062 YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

PICKTHAL: Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

SHAKIR: Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the  Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

005.069
YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

PICKTHAL: Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
SHAKIR: Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.

If Muslims heed this verse then they must concede that faith, truth and  righteousness does not come only with a particular religion.  To say otherwise, is a clear contradiction to this verse.... unless you can show where this verse means something else.

I will respond on the rest shortly, this response just touches on the overall. :)

Regards

http://www.islamonline.net/discussione/message.jspa?messageID=97198#97198

And alhamdulillah, the claim has been proven untrue by brother Islaamic. Insha Allah no muslims here will be deceived.  

Message was edited by:
Qonita