Do you know pvb, that we are communicating via souls without our 'shells', do not you realise that?

they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them - See how the Christians were duped by the Jews and the Romans?

The prophets of Allah were very good servants of Allah. Their prayers with their meditations made their souls very strong that the souls can envelope the physical body.

Then unto Me ye will (all) return - That is exactly what will happen pvb, all souls including the prophets Jesus and Muhammad for example, will return to God Almighty. Not to Jesus, not to the Holy spirit but to GOD ALMIGHTY!

Then unto Me ye will (all) return - That is exactly what will happen pvb, all souls including the prophets Jesus and Muhammad for example, will return to God Almighty. Not to Jesus, not to the Holy spirit but to GOD ALMIGHTY!

Have you not heard SZA, the Holy Spirit IS God and that Jesus has already returned to God and yet, returned to us from heaven.  Yet, you do not see that he has the power and authority of God to come and go from heaven. 

John 3:13  No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Thank you ya ukhti Qonita.

I hope your contribution will enlighten some people here and may one day light up the path of Truth for them.

If not in this generation perhaps the next.

InshaAllah!

No one has the right to describe Allaah except in the way in which He has described Himself or His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has described Him, because no one knows more about Allaah than Allaah, and no created being has more knowledge of his Creator than the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

Ps 51:11 Cast me not away from Your presence and take not Your Holy Spirit from me.   AMP

Isa 63:11-13

11 Then His people [seriously] remembered the days of old, of Moses and his people [and they said], Where is He Who brought [our fathers] up out of the [Red] Sea, with [Moses and the other] shepherds of His flock? Where is He Who put His Holy Spirit within their midst,

12 Who caused His glorious arm to go at the right hand of Moses, dividing the waters before them, to make for Himself an everlasting name,

13 Who led them through the depths, like a horse in the wilderness, so that they did not stumble?
AMP

Luke 11:13

13 If you then, evil as you are, know how to give good gifts [gifts that are to their advantage] to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask and  continue to ask Him!
AMP

I guess then, we can be clear that PVB did relate correctly about God

Message was edited by:
Ken

002:087]  We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you an apostle with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!

[002:253]  Those apostles We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them God spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit. If God had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If God had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but God Fulfilleth His plan.

[005:110]  Then will God say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

[016:102]  Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.

016:102]  Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.

So I guess you agree that there is a Holy Spirit?

Ken said: So I guess you agree that there is a Holy Spirit?

Yes, He is the angel, Gabriel

AP wrote: No, the angel Gabriel is just who your false prophet said appeared before him. Any non muslim knows that this is just made up crap.

Can you elaborate, like give a reason  for what you say?

May Allah indeed guide you

Hello Ken

The Quran is indeed the truth. The Quran does mention the other revealed books, it does not though say we are to follow it .. why?

because some people who killed their prophets and tried to kill the son of Maryam (may Allah be pleased with her) ... did naughty things.

Did you read in Quran that Allah warns those "who write the book with their own hands", those who fabricate and change Allah's words?

So Quran is the truth without doubt, a guide for those who are Allah-conscious. Those who believe in the UNSEEN, those who establish regular prayer and spend out of what Allah provided them.

So since Quran is the Truth and undeniably so, you can figure out the rest.

May Allah guide you

What writings tell Muslims that Gabriel is the Holy Spirit?

I have read that Mohammad was very frightened, considered suicide and basically had a rough time after the visit from Gabriel.  Did Gabriel ever comfort Mohammad?

"Did you read in Quran that Allah warns those "who write the book with their own hands", those who fabricate and change Allah's words"

What happened when the satanic verses were recited then discarded? 

always on the lookout for his life. Even though no one is going after him. It is his guilty conscience that made him insecure.

And then I get blamed for calling you people ******...but frankly, this forum compiles some of the best specimens. 

SZA said: always on the lookout for his life. Even though no one is going after him. It is his guilty conscience that made him insecure.

Max said: And then I get blamed for calling you people ******...but frankly, this forum compiles some of the best specimens. 

Though I wouldn't call her an *****; it is a clear denial of the truth that she is aware.  There is no question that some Muslims are all to happy to slaughter someone who leaves Islam.

And Max, you say the forum compiles some of the best specimens (of ******), remember you are here yourself. ;)

Regards

hello pvb

The quran speaks about the "ruh", the spirit, on multiple occassion, e.g. with the conception of Jesus (peace be upon him) by Mary and when Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) received revelation of Quran.

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) clarified this many times that the one who brought revelation was Gabriel (upon him be peace) and he is the Spirit.

Indeed Gabriel (upon him be peace) comforted Muhammad (peace be upon him) for instance:

When Gabriel (upon whom be peace) first uttered the first revealed word of Quran viz. IQRA', Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) responded a number of times that he is unable to read. Then after comforting him, Gabriel (upon him be peace) reads further, telling him, that he, Muhammad (peace be upon him) must repeat after Gabriel (upon whom be peace) for it is the word of Allah.

As for him contemplating suicide, then that is a little far-fetched. He was terrified nonetheless, until he understood what was transpiring.

and Allah knows Best

And none guide better than Allah

Truth can only be seen with the purity of mind and soul.

You have so much hatred for Muslims, I doubt you can see any truth.

Qonita,

You wrote: ND, what you say about "the Holy Spirit is God" etc... is your belief that we muslims do not share. We have a firm belief that the Holy Spirit is Jibril alaihi salam. We only speak about Allah our Lord based from the Qur'an and from the sayings of his Messenger salallahu alaihi wassalam.

If the Prophet called Jibril an Angel; how do you say “we Muslims does not share your belief” and believe that an Angel Jibril is “The Holy Spirit?” 

006.009
YUSUFALI: If We had made it an angel, We should have sent him as a man, and We should certainly have caused them confusion in a matter which they have already covered with confusion.

PICKTHAL: Had we appointed him (Our messenger) an angel, We assuredly had made him (as) a man (that he might speak to men); and (thus) obscured for them (the truth) they (now) obscure.
SHAKIR: And if We had made him angel, We would certainly have made him a man, and We would certainly have made confused to them what they make confused.  

002.087
YUSUFALI: We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you a messenger with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay! PICKTHAL: And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We supported him with the Holy spirit. Is it ever so, that, when there cometh unto you a messenger (from Allah) with that which ye yourselves desire not, ye grow arrogant, and some ye disbelieve and some ye slay? SHAKIR: And most certainly We gave Musa the Book and We sent messengers after him one after another; and We gave Isa, the son of Marium, clear arguments and strengthened him with the holy spirit, What! whenever then a messenger came to you with that which your souls did not desire, you were insolent so you called some liars and some you slew.

[Note:  Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit and spoke about the Holy Spirit; never about an Angel.  How could man properly name the Holy Spirit of God with the name of an Angel?  Jesus said he spoke with God but he did not claim to speak or have a revelation by an angel and he promised the Holy Spirit to man]

To speak about Allah & His attribute without proof is among the gravest sin.

And yet you speak about Allah and His attribute without proof. Where does the Qur’an support your idea that the Holy Spirit is the Angel, Jibril?  That is naming God’s Holy Spirit, AND, naming God after an Angel.   You, speak about Allah & His attribute without proof and you say is the gravest sin?  Where is your proof in speaking about Allah that way?  Did not the Prophet receive his revelation alone with no witnesses?  Yet, you deny the Bible as proof when Jesus clearly said that his teachings come directly from God? 

002.253
YUSUFALI: Those messengers We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit. If Allah had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If Allah had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but Allah Fulfilleth His plan.

PICKTHAL: Of those messengers, some of whom We have caused to excel others, and of whom there are some unto whom Allah spake, while some of them He exalted (above others) in degree; and We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty) and We supported him with the holy Spirit. And if Allah had so wiled it, those who followed after them would not have fought one with another after the clear proofs had come unto them. But they differed, some of them believing and some disbelieving. And if Allah had so willed it, they would not have fought one with another; but Allah doeth what He will.

SHAKIR: We have made some of these messengers to excel the others among them are they to whom Allah spoke, and some of them He exalted by (many degrees of) rank; and We gave clear miracles to Isa son of Marium, and strengthened him with the holy spirit. And if Allah had pleased, those after them would not have fought one with another after clear arguments had come to them, but they disagreed; so there were some of them who believed and others who denied; and if Allah had pleased they would not have fought one with another, but Allah brings about what He intends.

Notice here again we refer to the Holy Spirit and Jesus.  And another rather interesting fact that Muslims claim they love all the Prophets and that one is not exalted more than another. Yet they deny this verse, I quote:  “Of those messengers, some of whom We have caused to excel others” and “some unto whom Allah spake, while some of them He exalted (above others) in degree.”  And interesting to note is that in this same quote again, Jesus and the Holy Spirit is referenced!

Who exactly is the Prophet referring to here “some of whom Allah spake?”  The Prophet himself did not claim that Allah spoke to him, but rather Allah spoke through the Angel Jibril to him.

005.110
YUSUFALI: Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

PICKTHAL: When Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My favour unto thee and unto thy mother; how I strengthened thee with the holy Spirit, so that thou spakest unto mankind in the cradle as in maturity; and how I taught thee the Scripture and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and how thou didst shape of clay as it were the likeness of a bird by My permission, and didst blow upon it and it was a bird by My permission, and thou didst heal him who was born blind and the leper by My permission; and how thou didst raise the dead by My permission; and how I restrained the Children of Israel from (harming) thee when thou camest unto them with clear proofs, and those of them who disbelieved exclaimed: This is naught else than mere magic;

SHAKIR: When Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! Remember My favor on you and on your mother, when I strengthened you I with the holy Spirit, you spoke to the people in the cradle and I when of old age, and when I taught you the Book and the wisdom and the Taurat and the Injeel; and when you determined out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then you breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission, and you healed the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when you brought forth the dead by My permission; and when I withheld the children of Israel from you when you came to them with clear arguments, but those who disbelieved among them said: This is nothing but clear enchantment.

Again!   Here we have the only references to the Holy Spirit references to Jesus.  Further, note that the bird he refers seems to be referring to the Holy Spirit that was the dove ascending upon Jesus upon his symbolic baptism.  This is no coincidence that nowhere the Holy Spirit is referenced, the Angel is referenced and everywhere the Holy Spirit is referenced, it is referenced with Jesus.

Matthew 3:16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

A reminder again, to you what you believe, and to us what we believe. And we are firm in our believe, walhamdulillah. And it is our belief that Spirit is not among Allah's attribute, rather Spirit is of Allah's creation.
to sister SZA, I'd like to share a good reading from Islamqa.
====================================================
50774
He is debating with a Christian and is asking: Does God has a spirit?

Question:
I am debating with a Christian and he said to me that God has a spirit. My question is: does Allaah have a spirit (a spirit like the spirit of man, angels and all other creatures). Is the spirit something that is created or what?.

Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.
No one has the right to describe Allaah except in the way in which He has described Himself or His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has described Him, because no one knows more about Allaah than Allaah, and no created being has more knowledge of his Creator than the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

Surely the Word of God is trustworthy source of whom God says He is.  God not only has a spirit but IS a spirit!!!

John 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”

26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”
Now how do you possibly say you love Jesus and deny his divinity, authority and his teachings?   Jesus said it and you simply dismiss what you do not understand and instead of trying to understand the truth you say; we Muslims do not believe what you do and to each his own religion or your scriptures are corrupted and our is not.

Yet the Quran of which you say you believe, confirms Jesus’ authority.  Jesus is not a “partner” with God; he is FULL of God and sent by God and the Holy Spirit ascended upon him!  This Holy Spirit that ascended upon him was NOT an Angel… clearly it is the Holy Spirit of God… evidenced in Quran verses which you say Muslims believe but you claim is the Angel.

002.097
YUSUFALI: Say: Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel-for he brings down the (revelation) to thy heart by Allah's will, a confirmation of what went before, and guidance and glad tidings for those who believe,-

PICKTHAL: Say (O Muhammad, to mankind): Who is an enemy to Gabriel! For he it is who hath revealed (this Scripture) to thy heart by Allah's leave, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, and a guidance and glad tidings to believers;

SHAKIR: Say: Whoever is the enemy of Jibreel-- for surely he revealed it to your heart by Allah's command, verifying that which is before it and guidance and good news for the believers.

002.098
YUSUFALI: Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and messengers, to Gabriel and Michael,- Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith.

PICKTHAL: Who is an enemy to Allah, and His angels and His messengers, and Gabriel and Michael! Then, lo! Allah (Himself) is an enemy to the disbelievers.

SHAKIR: Whoever is the enemy of Allah and His angels and His messengers and Jibreel and Meekaeel, so surely Allah is the enemy of the unbelievers.

Gabriel and Michael are both Angels and you name the Holy Spirit of God the name of an Angel whom are known to be servants to God?

066.004
YUSUFALI: If ye two turn in repentance to Him, your hearts are indeed so inclined; But if ye back up each other against him, truly Allah is his Protector, and Gabriel, and (every) righteous one among those who believe,- and furthermore, the angels - will back (him) up.

PICKTHAL: If ye twain turn unto Allah repentant, (ye have cause to do so) for your hearts desired (the ban); and if ye aid one another against him (Muhammad) then lo! Allah, even He, is his Protecting Friend, and Gabriel and the righteous among the believers; and furthermore the angels are his helpers.

SHAKIR: If you both turn to Allah, then indeed your hearts are already inclined (to this); and if you back up each other against him, then surely Allah it is Who is his Guardian, and Jibreel and -the believers that do good, and the angels after that are the aiders.

See?  Angels are helpers, not the Holy Spirit of God!

Qonita, I doesn't matter to me what someone calls themself, if they are true believers they are obligated to find the truth about God and not just what someone has told you.  You don't have to believe me, read about it in the scripture that you do claim to believe. 

It seems extremely odd to call God by another name.  To say the Holy Spirit is the Angel Jibril is calling God, Jibril.  That is clear error even in error according to the Quran.

Best Regards

Hello ND, my response to you.

"If the Prophet called Jibril an Angel; how do you say “we Muslims does not share your belief” and believe that an Angel Jibril is “The Holy Spirit?” 

How do I say that? Its clear. Jibril alaihis salam is the angel of Revelation, it is he whom Allah sent to reveal the Qur'an to Prophet Muhammad. In other places of the Qur'an, he is mentioned as the Ruhul-Amin (the Trustworthy Spirit), and Ruhul-Qudus (the Holy Spirit). 

"And yet you speak about Allah and His attribute without proof."

Of course I did not. Thats a big accusation to make, ND. I seek refuge in Allah from such a thing. I leave you to Allah with this accusation, as He Has Knowledge over all things. May He guide you.

"Where does the Qur’an support your idea that the Holy Spirit is the Angel, Jibril?"  

Again, Angel Jibril alaihisalam is the angel of Revelation. He is also mentioned as Ruhul Amin (the Trustworthy Spirit) and Ruhul Qudus (The Holy Spirit). The Qur'an says (interpretation in the meaning) :

"Whoever is an enemy to Jibrael (Gabriel) (let him die in his fury), for indeed he has brought it (this Qur' n) down to your heart. [al-Baqarah 2:97] 

"And truly, this (the Qur' n) is a revelation from the Lord of the 'Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists), Which the trustworthy Rûh [Jibrael (Gabriel)] has brought down; [Ash Shu'ara 26: 192-193]

“Say (O Muhammad) Rooh ul Qudus [Jibreel (Gabriel)] has brought it (the Qur’aan) down from your Lord with truth, that it may make firm and strengthen (the Faith of) those who believe, and as a guidance and glad tidings to those who have submitted (to Allaah as Muslims)” [al-Nahl 16:102] 

So its clear, its Angel Jibril alaihis salam that has brough down the Qur'an from Allah to Prophet Muhammad. Jibril is the name of the Angel of Revelation, and he is also called as the Ruhul Amin and Ruhul Qudus.

"That is naming God’s Holy Spirit, AND, naming God after an Angel."

 SubhanAllahi 'amma yasifoon. There is no single explanation from the Qur'an and Sunnah that Holy Spirit is God. Believe as you wish, that's a matter between you and God. We do not share your belief. Is that clear yet, ND? 

"You, speak about Allah & His attribute without proof and you say is the gravest sin?  Where is your proof in speaking about Allah that way?" 

Look at the explanation above. 

"Did not the Prophet receive his revelation alone with no witnesses?  Yet, you deny the Bible as proof when Jesus clearly said that his teachings come directly from God?"

Are you confused? Of course there are many trustworthy companions of the Prophet witnessing revelation of the Qur'an. One thing is for sure, in Islam what the companions of the Prophet had witnessed were not recorded in the book of Revelation itself (the Qur'an), but in separate books. All praise is due to Allah. This way, we have no confusion about which one is the Book of Allah, which one is the sayings of prophet Muhammad, which one is testimony of the prophet's companions. The Word of Allah, the Qur'an, is not mixed with man's word. Indeed this is a great blessing from Allah to muslims, walhamdulillah.

"Notice here again we refer to the Holy Spirit and Jesus.  And another rather interesting fact that Muslims claim they love all the Prophets and that one is not exalted more than another. Yet they deny this verse, I quote:  “Of those messengers, some of whom We have caused to excel others” and “some unto whom Allah spake, while some of them He exalted (above others) in degree.” 

And interesting to note is that in this same quote again, Jesus and the Holy Spirit is referenced! Who exactly is the Prophet referring to here “some of whom Allah spake?”  The Prophet himself did not claim that Allah spoke to him, but rather Allah spoke through the Angel Jibril to him."

I guess this will need separate explanation. Suffice to say, muslims believe in all mesengers that Allah sent, we do not distinguish and we do not reject any one of them like those who reject Prophet Muhammad (while worshipping other messenger na'udzu billah). And it is for Allah to exalt any messenger of Him as He wish. Allah did what He Willed, and He Has Power over all things.

"Again!   Here we have the only references to the Holy Spirit references to Jesus.  Further, note that the bird he refers seems to be referring to the Holy Spirit that was the dove ascending upon Jesus upon his symbolic baptism.  This is no coincidence that nowhere the Holy Spirit is referenced, the Angel is referenced and everywhere the Holy Spirit is referenced, it is referenced with Jesus."

Not always, ND. In Surah An-Nahl 102, it does not mention Jesus. Believe as you wish ND, we do not share that, remember? For us its clear that the Holy Spirit in above verses is Angel Jibril. There are also some authentic hadith from the Prophet Salallahu alaihi wassalam said to Hassan ibn Thabit : “O Allaah, support him with Rooh al-Qudus.” According to another report: “Rooh al-Qudus will be with you so long as you are defending His Prophet.” Its not only about Jesus alahisalam. And Allah knows best.

"Surely the Word of God is trustworthy source of whom God says He is.  God not only has a spirit but IS a spirit!!!"

SubhanAllahi 'amma yasifoon. The Word of Allah that is trustworty source for us is the Qur'an. We do not trust the nowadays Bible as you do. Is that clear? Don't be confused, please.

"Now how do you possibly say you love Jesus and deny his divinity, authority and his teachings?"   

 What happen to you ND? You know well muslims worship Allah alone, you know muslims regard Jesus alaihi salam as one of His Messengers among others, you know we follow Prophet Muhammad salallahu alaihi wassalam and love him more than we love ourselves. You want muslims to believe as you do? No way.

"Jesus said it and you simply dismiss what you do not understand and instead of trying to understand the truth you say; we Muslims do not believe what you do and to each his own religion or your scriptures are corrupted and our is not."

Indeed, whether you like it or not we will always say to those who disbelieve : To you what you believe, and to us what we believe. This is a clear stance, it is taught by Allah our Lord in the Qur'an, read surah al-Kafiroon. Anyway we won't be like you, which with all that you wrote as if you tell us : "To us what we believe and to you what we believe too!!"

The truth is there for everyone to see,  if you follow it then alhamdulillah, if you turn away then no one will be affected by it but yourself. Simple as that.

"Yet the Quran of which you say you believe, confirms Jesus’ authority.  Jesus is not a “partner” with God; he is FULL of God and sent by God and the Holy Spirit ascended upon him!  This Holy Spirit that ascended upon him was NOT an Angel… clearly it is the Holy Spirit of God… evidenced in Quran verses which you say Muslims believe but you claim is the Angel. "

Thats a big lie against Allah and the Qur'an. Be careful ND.

"Who is more unjust than one who invents a lie against Allah or rejects His Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.)? [7:37]

"Qonita, I doesn't matter to me what someone calls themselve, if they are true believers they are obligated to find the truth about God and not just what someone has told you." 

Alhamdulillah, I have found the truth about My Creator in Islam. It is in the Qur'an the Word of Allah, and in the Sunnah. Perhaps you more need to that advice.

"You don't have to believe me, read about it in the scripture that you do claim to believe."

Of course I have no reason to believe in your interpretation of the Qur'an, no need to remind me. You do not believe in the whole Qur'an as the Word of God. You do not believe in Prophet Muhammad as God's last Messenger, to whom the Qur'an was revealed. You do not believe in Islam as the true religion from God. So why anyone must believe in your interpretation of the Qur'an?!

 "It seems extremely odd to call God by another name.  To say the Holy Spirit is the Angel Jibril is calling God, Jibril.  That is clear error even by the Quran."

It won't seem odd at all if you can accept the fact that muslims do noit believe that Holy Spirit is God. It is you who is in clear error in (mis)understanding the Qur'an. There's no single muslims will ever say things like that. Not the prophet, not ulama, no one. Only Christian missionaries who try to deceive muslims who will say such a thing. And alhamdulillah, with Allah's help we wont be deceived.

Let me repeat. Muslims do not believe that Holy Spirit is God. Now can you understand that fact?

Message was edited by: Qonita

MashaAllah ya Ukhti.

Shabas! Keep up the good work.

SZA

So Qonita, your response is to simply insult.

Answer the post please.

I showed you where the references to the Holy Spirit in the Quran relate to Jesus (almost exclusively) and not an angel.   Since you say you follow the Quran, show me in the Quran where the Holy Spirit is anything but the Spirit of God.  Show me in the Quran where the Angel is referred to as the Holy Spirit of God.

Otherwise, you are making up things to accommodate your religion and your own personal ideology. ;)

James 3:14   But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth.

How do you deny or explain away this verse as well that says that God talked to some (even though the Prophet himself did not claim to have spoken to God) and how some are exalted above others?  Especially when you claim that no prophet is above another (while eliminating the Word of God of Jesus, who spoke with God).

002.253 PICKTHAL: Of those messengers, some of whom We have caused to excel others, and of whom there are some unto whom Allah spake, while some of them He exalted (above others) in degree; and We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty) and We supported him with the holy Spirit. And if Allah had so wiled it, those who followed after them would not have fought one with another after the clear proofs had come unto them. But they differed, some of them believing and some disbelieving. And if Allah had so willed it, they would not have fought one with another; but Allah doeth what He will.

Again, some of whom Allah spoke, and He exalted above others, and Jesus was "clear proofs" of Allah's Sovereignty by giving him the Holy Spirit.  Jesus himself claimed to authority of the Holy Spirit of God; not the authority of an angel.  If the Holy Spirit of God is an angel, why did not Jesus say his authority and Soverignty was from an angel instead of God Himself; His Holy Spirit?

Do you think it is a coincidence that Sovereignty, Holy Spirit, Allah spoke, exalted above others is all mentioned in this verse with Jesus?

Regards

Hello ND

There is a clear difference is who is speaking

From Allah's point of vantage - He knows who He has favoured,etc

From the human viewpoint - we have no ability and reason to differentiate.

So, when we say we do not differentiate as per Quran - the references to 'making no differentiation" relates to us humans.

Allah knows who He favours.

And Allah knows Best

And may He guide you

Hello ND,

"So Qonita, your response is to simply insult."

No ND, I simply refute each point you raise. If it does not benefit you, insha Allah it still will beneficial for some muslims who happen to read.

"Answer the post please."

It has been answered, if only you read.

"I showed you where the references to the Holy Spirit in the Quran relate to Jesus (almost exclusively) and not an angel."  

The verses you quoted do not prove your point that Holy Spirit is Allah. SubhanAllahi 'amma yasifoon.

"Since you say you follow the Quran, show me in the Quran where the Holy Spirit is anything but the Spirit of God.  Show me in the Quran where the Angel is referred to as the Holy Spirit of God."

It has been shown to you. Read the above post again please. Ruhul Qudus (Holy Spirit), brought down the Qur'an, as well as verses mentioning Angel Jibril brought down the Qur'an. From this we know that Holy Spirit is Angel Jibril, not any angel but Angel Jibril alaihi salam whom Allah sent to reveal the Qur'an to the prophet. And Allah knows best.

"Otherwise, you are making up things to accommodate your religion and your own personal ideology. ;)"

Hm, the one who is making up things to accomodate one's own religion and one's own personal ideology is not me. Perhaps its you. Think of it.

"James 3:14   But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth."

Wow, this one you quote seems suit you so much!  Perhaps you don't realize it?

"How do you deny or explain away this verse as well that says that God talked to some (even though the Prophet himself did not claim to have spoken to God) and how some are exalted above others?  Especially when you claim that no prophet is above another (while eliminating the Word of God of Jesus, who spoke with God)."

002.253 PICKTHAL: Of those messengers, some of whom We have caused to excel others, and of whom there are some unto whom Allah spake, while some of them He exalted (above others) in degree; and We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty) and We supported him with the holy Spirit. And if Allah had so wiled it, those who followed after them would not have fought one with another after the clear proofs had come unto them. But they differed, some of them believing and some disbelieving. And if Allah had so willed it, they would not have fought one with another; but Allah doeth what He will.

There are several points you raise here, which as I said need separate explanation. I will address these issues further later, insha Allah, when I have more time. Its about : 1)Allah spoke to some prophets;  and 2)Allah exalted some prophets over others;

"Again, some of whom Allah spoke, and He exalted above others, and Jesus was "clear proofs" of Allah's Sovereignty by giving him the Holy Spirit.  Jesus himself claimed to authority of the Holy Spirit of God; not the authority of an angel. 

If the Holy Spirit of God is an angel, why did not Jesus say his authority and Soverignty was from an angel instead of God Himself; His Holy Spirit?"

There are several points here. Holy Spirit, as we believe it, is the Angel of Revelation that is Jibril Alaihi salam. He is among the highest rank of Allah's Angels, yet he has no authority or Sovereignty (as you said it) to give to any prophets. He only relate the Message from Allah to His messengers as Allah commanded him to. He brought down the Injeel to Prophet Iysa alahi salam and he brought down the Qur'an to Prophet Muhammad salallahu alaihi wasallam. As for why Jesus did not say this or that,  we can't be sure, because, --as you must know it-- we do not believe that the nowadays Bible is the same Injeel that was brought down to Prophet Iysa (Jesus) alaihi salam.

"Do you think it is a coincidence that Sovereignty, Holy Spirit, Allah spoke, exalted above others is all mentioned in this verse with Jesus?"

Holy Spirit is not Allah, subhanAllahi 'amma yasifoon. Its not to only Prophet 'Iysa alone that Allah sent holy spirit. Also, its not only Prophet Iysa alone that Allah exalted among other prophets. Again, I will insha Allah write more about this later because I think it need a rather lengthy explanation, and I have no time for that for now.

However I have a good advice from a scholar which I'd like to share with you ND. Quoted below :

So whoever believes in Him must study the verses of the Qur’aan in the light of one another, not in isolation, the one who quotes from Qur’aan should be fair in his quotation. He should not quote verses and turn away from others, and he should not confuse truth with falsehood or use some verses against others in order to promote falsehood, as our predecessors the Jews did with the Torah, for which Allaah denounced them when He said (interpretation of the meaning):

“Then do you believe in a part of the Scripture and reject the rest? Then what is the recompense of those who do so among you, except disgrace in the life of this world, and on the Day of Resurrection they shall be consigned to the most grievous torment. And Allaah is not unaware of what you do” [al-Baqarah 2:85]

Based on this, those who quote the Qur’aan as evidence should accept its evidence that ‘Eesa (peace be upon him) is not the “son of God” and that he is not divine along with God, and they should affirm the Oneness of God, because of what is mentioned in its verses, and because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Surely, they have disbelieved who say: ‘Allaah is the Messiah [‘Eesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary).’ But the Messiah [‘Eesa (Jesus)] said: ‘O Children of Israel! Worship Allaah, my Lord and your Lord.’ Verily, whosoever sets up partners (in worship) with Allaah, then Allaah has forbidden Paradise to him, and the Fire will be his abode. And for the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers) there are no helpers. Surely, disbelievers are those who said: ‘Allaah is the third of the three (in a Trinity)’” [al-Maa'idah 5:17]

And there are many similar verses in the Qur’aan.

Otherwise they should stop playing with the words, because that will only lead them to shame and will make the wise laugh at them in derision.  Unquoted

Please think of that, ND. May Allah guide you.

Salam.

Sorry Qonita,

But every single verse you provided was about the Angel Gabriel and not in a single verse was about the Holy Spirit.

This is a very FAR stretch to name God's Holy Spirit after the Angel; and even according to the faith you say you follow in the Quran, it is blasphemy to name God by any other name.

Again, I ask you to show where the Holy Spirit is not God in the Quran AND that the Holy Spirit is the Angel USING THE SCRIPTURE you claim to follow; rather than having to use your explanation of your belief that is not substantiated with scriptural verses of the Quran. 

Perhaps you could start with reading the verses of the Holy Spirit in the Quran rather than just verses about the Angel Gabriel.  :)

Thank you.

P.S.  According to your notion that Gabriel is the Holy Spirit; then Mary was impregnated by the Angel Gabriel, instead of the Holy Spirit of God and Jesus was conceived through the Angel instead.

Qonita,

Really now... I gave you every verse in the Quran that mentioned The Holy Spirit (with the exception of one) and nowhere does it reference Jibril with the Holy Spirit.  However, you provided none except something written in Arabic without a verse number, using another name other than Holy Spirit and say it is Holy Spirit.

I should expect none other than, I am tried, you don't understand, I am wasting my time, we believe, you have trouble understanding, etc. without a single verse that says The Holy Spirit is Jibril.  You reference Ruhul Amin and Ruhul Qudas where Jibril is in parenthesis translated by men and you call it The Holy Spirit AND the Angel the same.  It is not true that the Prophet claimed to receive revelations from more than one angel?  Perhaps by definition, you call all angels referenced in the Quran the Holy Spirit?

Then you proceed to accuse me of falsehood and accuse me of an attitude that I know your scriptures better than you and do not want to learn.

And still after all that, not a single verse to support what you claim but accuse me of falsifying.  My mistake is that I thought the Prophet was referring to the Biblical account of the conception of Jesus and the same Angel referenced... but instead it appears they are different stories all together if your scholars say otherwise.

If you want to confuse God with an angel, and refuse to see it is wrong to do so that is your choice...   The Bible is the accurate account of Jesus and The Holy Spirit and I would certainly not refer to another Book for knowledge of Jesus written by a non-Christian hundreds of years later through secondhand knowledge.  Perhaps the real problem is that Jibril mentioned in the Quran is NOT the Angel Gabriel of the Bible... many other Biblical names referenced in the Quran seem to be confused with other people as well.  Jesus was conceived with God's Holy Spirit, not by an angel, according to the Bible which is the story of Jesus.  We will just leave it at that!  But here is the Biblical account of "Gabriel" announcing that Jesus would be conceived with the Holy Spirit.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201:11-38;&version=50

May God have patience and continue in guiding us to the Truth.

Regards

P.S. I say Jesus is not a "partner"with God but instead full of God's Holy Spirit and you give me the quote about making lies against Allah?  Wow!  "Who is more unjust than one who invents a lie against Allah or rejects His Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.)? [7:37]

OK ND, looks like I need to reply again.

"Really now... I gave you every verse in the Quran that mentioned The Holy Spirit (with the exception of one) and nowhere does it reference Jibril with the Holy Spirit." 

 The one verse that you make exception, that is the very verse that mentioned Holy Spirit as the one who brought the revelation from God with Truth. You see? In our belief, Holy Spirit is the one who revealed the Qur'an from God. Do not support your theory at all.

 "However, you provided none except something written in Arabic without a verse number, using another name other than Holy Spirit and say it is Holy Spirit."

 See, ND. This is yet another proof that you did not really read what other had to say. You say "without a verse number", but look again, its there. I   wrote it in number you can read : 16:102. That is the verse you do not mention in your previous post!

 Translation is only translation. Qur’an as the Word of Allah is in Arabic. Anyway, here is some translation of that verse An Nahl (16) : 102.

Muhsin Khan: Say (O Muhammad SAW) Ruh-ul-Qudus [Jibrael (Gabriel)] has brought it (the Quran) down from your Lord with truth, that it may make firm and strengthen (the Faith of) those who believe and as a guidance and glad tidings to those who have submitted (to Allah as Muslims).

Yusuf Ali: Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.

Pickthal: Say: The holy Spirit hath delivered it from thy Lord with truth, that it may confirm (the faith of) those who believe, and as guidance and good tidings for those who have surrendered (to Allah).

Shakir: Say: The Holy spirit has revealed it from your Lord with the truth, that it may establish those who believe and as a guidance and good news for those who submit.

Sahih International: Say, [O Muúammad], "The Pure Spirit has brought it down from your Lord in truth to make firm those who believe and as guidance and good tidings to the Muslims."

Transliteration: Qul nazzalahu roohu alqudusi minrabbika bilhaqqi liyuthabbita allatheena amanoowahudan wabushra lilmuslimeen

 "I should expect none other than, I am tried, you don't understand, I am wasting my time, we believe, you have trouble understanding, etc. without a single verse that says The Holy Spirit is Jibril.  You reference Ruhul Amin and Ruhul Qudas where Jibril is in parenthesis translated by men and you call it The Holy Spirit AND the Angel the same. "

 Well ND, whatever you say, it is in the Qur'an that Holy Spirit is the one who brought the revelation from Allah to Prophet Muhammad.

 "It is not true that the Prophet claimed to receive revelations from more than one angel?  Perhaps by definition, you call all angels referenced in the Quran the Holy Spirit?"

 No, thats not true. Prophet Muhammad salallahu alaihi wassalam never said to receive revelation from anyone other than angel Jibril alaihi salam.  And I do not know any other entity (in Islamic source) that is called as Holy Spirit but angel Jibril alaihi salam.

"Then you proceed to accuse me of falsehood and accuse me of an attitude that I know your scriptures better than you and do not want to learn."

 Sorry ND, that is not an accusation. That is what it is. You abuse our holy Qur'an to prove your point, which you fail.

 "And still after all that, not a single verse to support what you claim but accuse me of falsifying." 

 Whatever you say, then. What can I say if you fail to understand, after this.

 "My mistake is that I thought the Prophet was referring to the Biblical account of the conception of  Jesus and the same Angel referenced... but instead it appears they are different stories all together if your scholars say otherwise."

 Looks like this needs a separate topic.

 "If you want to confuse God with an angel, and refuse to see it is wrong to do so that is your choice..."  

 Alhamdulillah, there is no confusion on our part. We only speak about Allah based on what He says in the Qur’an and what His Messenger say in authentic hadith. SubhanAllahi ‘amma yasifoon.

 "The Bible is the accurate account of Jesus and The Holy Spirit and I would certainly not refer to another Book for knowledge of Jesus written by a non-Christian hundreds of years later through secondhand knowledge." 

If you say it like this ND, then I will simply say : That is your belief that we do not share.

 "Perhaps the real problem is that Jibril mentioned in the Quran is NOT the Angel Gabriel of the Bible... many other Biblical names referenced in the Quran seem to be confused with other people as well." 

I don’t think that’s the real problem. Simply say, we believe in the Qur’an as the true word of God. So in case there is difference in many accounts (as expected), we believe in the Qur’an as  the truth one. .

 "Jesus was conceived with God's Holy Spirit, not by an angel, according to the Bible which is the story of Jesus.  We will just leave it at that!  But here is the Biblical account of "Gabriel" announcing that Jesus would be conceived with the Holy Spirit."

 As for how Jesus was created by Allah, then I think this is a separate issue.

 "I say Jesus is not a "partner"with God but instead full of God's Holy Spirit and you give me the quote about making lies against Allah?  Wow!  "Who is more unjust than one who invents a lie against Allah or rejects His Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.)? [7:37]"

 No ND, if you simply say that, that only means you stated what you belief. But you  write after that : ("This Holy Spirit that ascended upon him was NOT an Angel… clearly it is the Holy Spirit of God… evidenced in Quran verses which you say Muslims believe but you claim is the Angel.") What you said is shirk according to our belief, and to say that it is evidenced in the Qur'an, well, that is a lie against Allah and the Qur'an.

ND, I did have dialogue with some Christians before this, both on IOL and others. But  I did not tell them "To you what you believe, to us what we believe" every so often. But I tell our stance to you repeteadly because its clear you want to thrust your belief to us, which is of course is rejected.

Hope you understand this.

May Allah guide you and us to the right path. Peace be on you.

And Allah Knows best.

The Pillars of Iman are six:
To believe in Allah, the Angels, the Books, the Messengers, the Last Day, the Divine Destiny and that the good and bad of it are all from Allah, the Most High.

2. To believe in His angels

This is the acceptance and compliance of the heart that the angles are the noble servants of Allah, they do as He commands and never disobey. They are beings created from light, neither male nor female. They do not have father, mothers, mates, or children. Their sustenance is the remembrance and glorification of Allah. They act without restriction in the creation according to what Allah has permitted for them.

It is obligatory to know ten angels in particular:

1) Jibreel : has the duty to of dispensing revelation to the Messengers of Allah.

2) Mika'il : in charge of the rains.

3) Isra'fil : in charge of blowing the horn on the Day of Judgement.

4) 'Azra'il : the angel of death, in charge of taking the souls from their bodies.

5 & 6) Munkar and Nakeer : the angels that question the dead in the graves.

7 & 8) Raqeeb and 'Ateed : the angels that record the good and bad deeds.

9) Ridwaan : the gatekeeper of Paradise.

10) Maalik : the gatekeeper of the Fire.

ND, I asked this question to pvb before, now I ask you again. If the bible has pornographic verses clearly written by perverted priests, what make you think that the concept of trinity were not penned by them too?

Clearly Jesus was a prophet of God - a Creation of God just like Jibrail or the Holy Spirit.

ND, I asked this question to pvb before, now I ask you again. If the bible has pornographic verses clearly written by perverted priests, what make you think that the concept of trinity were not penned by them too?

SZA,

The Bible does not have pornographic verses in it... it is only pornographic to those looking at it through peverse eyes and/or to those who are seeking to destroy it's beauty instead of understanding it and seeing in beauty and teachings of a "faithful" love between and man and a woman.  

By example, as the story of Adam and Eve in the Bible.... they didn't know they were "naked" until their view become perverse and then covered themselves.  One may see something as perverse when their minds are perverse... and one may not see perverse at all when their minds are pure.

Clearly Jesus was a prophet of God - a Creation of God just like Jibrail or the Holy Spirit.

So, you are saying that Jibrail and the Holy Spirit are separate creations from God?   And at the same time, denying that the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit of God; as being a "Creation" of God rather than a part of God?

Regards

I think this is the verse that correctly defines what you said.

Titus 1:15 Everything is clean to the clean-minded; nothing is clean to dirty-minded unbelievers. THE MESSAGE

We are born pure with pure souls.

It is the lust and satan that accompanied our souls that corrupt our pure souls.

The pornographic verses are an insult to the Purity of God.

My dear ND,

This is the link that should be read to those who wants to clarify whether there are pornogrpahic verses in the Bible.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac10.htm

The pornographic verses in the Bible is an insult to the Purity of God.

Why are you trying to twist my word? Jibril is the Holy Spirit! Jibril is the leader of all angels. Hence he is the only angel that had the honour of delivering the Holy messages from God Al-Mighty to the prophets of Allah.

Eesa or Jesus Alaihissalam was indeed a prophet of God. Simple!

This is the link that should be read to those who wants to clarify whether there are pornogrpahic verses in the Bible.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac10.htm

SZA,

Thanks for the link; but I do not need to go to another Muslim site to confirm the opinion is the same you just gave. :) 

Why are you trying to twist my word? Jibril is the Holy Spirit! Jibril is the leader of all angels. Hence he is the only angel that had the honour of delivering the Holy messages from God Al-Mighty to the prophets of Allah.

I am not trying to twist your words.  You appear to be confused as to who and what the Holy Spirit is and I am trying to help you sort out this confusion as to not confuse the Spirit of God with angels, etc.... 

According to the Bible; the Angel Gabriel brought the message to Mary that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit.  In the Bible Gabriel is only mentioned a couple of times to announce the coming of Christ and John and confirm their authority.  The Bible does not say that Jesus was conceived by the Angel Gabriel but of the Holy Spirit of God.  Even the Quran does not call an agnel The Holy Spirit of God... unless you can clearly show otherwise; I have done my research.

Perhaps Jibril of the Quran is not the Gabriel of the Bible!

Gabriel is mentioned twice in the Bible.  Once to interpret a dream that Daniel had concerning the end of times and the other is to announce the birth of Jesus and John.  Here is the reference to the Angel Gabriel in the Bible and he was not the father of Jesus. :)

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201:11-38;&version=50;

Regards

SZA- Are you saying that Jesus has not already ascended to be with Allah?

[3:55] (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ.

Can any one prove that is not the true meaning of the verse?

[4:157]
And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah’s messenger [they killed the shell] - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them [because again it was the shell]; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.[because He is alive today with God]