In response to: An earlier thread noted that Western Christians did not even have access to a translation of the Qur'an into a European language until 1143. In that year Robert of Ketton, at the behest of Peter the Venerable, Abbot of Cluny, translated the Qur'an into Latin. The purpose of the translation, however, was polemical. in any event it was not widely circulated unto the advent of printing, in 1543. Even the the purpose was polemical.

Subsequent translations of the Qur'an into Eropean vernacular languages such as Italian, German and Dutch were made from this Latin translation. Independent translation began appearing in German in 1616, in French  (by De Ryer) in 1647, in English (by a Scotsman Alexander Ross, based on a French translation) in 1649,  and in Russian  in 1776. Later English translation were by J.M. Rodwell in 1861 and E.H. Palmer in 1880, and then by an English convert to Islam, Marmaduke Pickthall in 1930.

The point of al of this? The so-called "knowledge" of Islam during most of European history, as shown from the above account, has been long based on polemical confrontations since the Crusades, a tradition which continues.

An interesting parallel development shows that even attempts to learn about Islam from original sources were discourage\d, if not prohibited outright. For instance, in 1705 Hadrian Reland of Utrecht pubished his De Religione Mohammedica ("On the Religion of Muhammad"), based on original sources, but the book was placed on the Roman Index of prohibited books because it was deemed "too favorable to Islam." (Mohammed N. Ovey, S.J. Muslim-Christian Relations: Past, Present, Future [Orbis Books, 1999], p. 46).

Information on the history of translations of the Qur'an, from which the above is largely taken, can be easily and accessibly found in the introduction to recent hard-copy editions of Yusuf Ali's translation of the Qur'an, which should be available to most posters. It is also found in many scholarly discussion of the development of the Qur'an, such as the relevant article in the Encyclopedia of Islam (Revised Edition), which gives a complete catalogue of translations, as well as "Bell's Introcution to the Qur'an"by W. Montgomery Watt (Edinburgh, 1970), pp. 173-178, and the more recent Cambridege Companion to the Qur'an, edited by Jane Dammen McAuliffe (2006), pp. 238-241.

Maxho wrote: So what's your point?

Thank you for asking. Read the post and the previous one on the subject in their entirety.

In case you missed it, however, and for your reading pleassure and convenience (I also highlighted it above in red), here it is again

"The point of all of this: The so-called 'knowledge' of Islam during most of European history, as shown from the above account, has been long based on polemical confrontations since the Crusades,"

Of course it is, and it will always be that way. What do you expect? People to study in detail all the various denominations and scholarly interpretation of every faith? even when translations are widely available people aren't that much interested in academic religious studies.

People react instinctively and without "documentation" because life is bigger than academic references, something you will probably never get through your thick muslim looking skull.

A majority of non-muslims all over the world today resent muslims and have a bad feeling about Islam. Are they wrong? I don't think so. Muslims are responsible for the image they give of themselves and how they portray their religion. And for the most part the reality of Islam looks everyday more like despotism and a living hell. Shouldn't one be entitled to have likes and dislikes based on his own experiences and the events unfolding around him? Do you really think that studying Islam will make people more favorable towards it? I believe on the contrary that it will make them realize how deep the evilness is rooted in this cult of hate.

Let me summarize, you seem to want to inform people about Islam thinking that it would improve its image. I am convinced to the contrary and that's why I share the same ambition than you. I truly wish every non-muslim would take the time to read the Quran and debate muslims in order to really know what this religion is about. If I could get people to do that, I would no longer worry about the sure demise and extinction of the most dehumanizing and destructive ideology the world has ever known.

Maxho wrote: So what's your point?

Thank you for asking. Read the post and the previous one on the subject in their entirety.

In case you missed it, however, and for your reading pleassure and convenience (I also highlighted it above in red), here it is again

"The point of all of this: The so-called 'knowledge' of Islam during most of European history, as shown from the above account, has been long based on polemical confrontations since the Crusades,"

Maxho wrote: Of course it is, and it will always be that way. What do you expect? People to study in detail all the various denominations and scholarly interpretation of every faith? even when translations are widely available people aren't that much interested in academic religious studies.

What I "expect" is that self-professed intellectuals like you who go shooting their mouths off on an Islam Board will have at least the resources to know where to go to learn from authentic sourfce and release themselves of the biases and prejudices inherited from the past. That was also the "point," thank you very much.

People react instinctively and without "documentation" because life is bigger than academic references,

I am well aware about "people."  Those supposed intellectuals like you, however, are suppose to know beter and know were to go for authentic information. You are a microcosmic personification of what is wrong with the policies behind the misadvenentures of today

You belittle people, but I am a strong believer in human nature when one hasn't been brainwashed with absurdities from birth. And no amount of documentation from you from any source or from any "reputable scholar" will change the fact that orthodox Islam, derived from most authentic Islamic sources is having a terrible influence on humankind. The fact that there were mystical currents, diverging interpretations or various degrees of literalism in the course of history doesn't change the overall negative picture.

The point about "people" was raised by you, not me. I have provided historical background, from documented sources, with citations

You continue to make undocumented and unproven assertions (I will accept them as your uninformed opinions, if that is what you are offering).

At least you are will to make some concessions, but it doesn't change the overall picture of your unfounded assertions and worthless opinions.

You provide information that indicate that people were for a long time unable to read the Quran because translations were lacking. Fine.

I explain that the availability of the Quran doesn't make people in general more informed about it, since most don't read it.

Therefore your point is moot.

I went further, and expressed my opinon that people knowing the Quran could only hurt the cause of Islam, as it exposes the fact that fundamentalists aren't misinterpreting the Quran, but on the contrary follow it closely. That's why I wish ALL non-muslims would get more informed. Don't you want that too?

In response to: The point about "people" was raised by you, not me. I have provided historical background, from documented sources, with citations

You continue to make undocumented and unproven assertions (I will accept them as your uninformed opinions, if that is what you are offering).

At least you are will to make some concessions, but it doesn't change the overall picture of your unfounded assertions and worthless opinions.

Maxho wrote:  You provide information that indicate that people were for a long time unable to read the Quran because translations were lacking. Fine.

Thank you. Not only "information," but documentation as well.

I explain that the availability of the Quran doesn't make people in general more informed about it, since most don't read it.

Irrelevant. The point, taken in conetext of the entire discussion, refers not only to "people, but also toauthorities, particularly Church authorities,  who should be informed when making authoritative judgements.

I went further, and expressed my opinon that people knowing the Quran could only hurt the cause of Islam, as it exposes the fact that fundamentalists aren't misinterpreting the Quran, but on the contrary follow it closely

As long as it is understood that this is merely another uninformed opinion, fine.

"The point, taken in conetext of the entire discussion, refers not only to "people, but also toauthorities, particularly Church authorities,  who should be informed when making authoritative judgements."

The Church, like anyone, is entitled to form its opinion on the general mindset and behavior of a people. Actions speak louder than words. The Quran can only serve in understanding the root cause behind them.

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I went further, and expressed my opinon that people knowing the Quran could only hurt the cause of Islam, as it exposes the fact that fundamentalists aren't misinterpreting the Quran, but on the contrary follow it closely.

clougla: As long as it is understood that this is merely another uninformed opinion, fine.

Do you disagree with that opinon? Do you believe that the Quran and the Sunnah give no justification to fundamentalist Islam? Do you believe that all fundamentaists are uninformed too?

In response to: "The point, taken in conetext of the entire discussion, refers not only to "people, but also to authorities, particularly Church authorities,  who should be informed when making authoritative judgements."

Maxho wrote: The Church, like anyone, is entitled to form its opinion on the general mindset and behavior of a people. Actions speak louder than words. The Quran can only serve in understanding the root cause behind them.

As noted, the "opinions" about the beliefs of Islam are of no more value than your if uninformed. One only needs to go to your posts to see the stupic results.

[Max]I went further, and expressed my opinon that people knowing the Quran could only hurt the cause of Islam, as it exposes the fact that fundamentalists aren't misinterpreting the Quran, but on the contrary follow it closely.

clougla: As long as it is understood that this is merely another uninformed opinion, fine.

Do you disagree with that opinon?

Let's see you back something up with authentic knowledge of an education about Islam, or an education about SOMETHING. That's point.

You're avoiding the subject again. I guess you know this will be an other losing fight for you and you better avoid it