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Interview: Abdul Hadi Awang, Terengganu Chief Minister, Malaysia
By Kazi Mahmood
25/06/2001
 When Abdul Hadi bin Awang, the Chief Minister of Terengganu province, Malaysia, agreed to grant IslamOnline an interview at his office in Kuala Terengganu, it provided an opportunity to discuss the major issues affecting the opposition alliance and the establishment of an Islamic state in Malaysia.
Awang, also the deputy leader of the Party Islam Se Malaysia (PAS), spoke with such frankness about Islam and the implementation of an Islamic state that it emboldens the vision of the PAS. It also opposes the party of Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad, the United Malays National Organization (UMNO), in many ways.
During the UMNO's annual general meeting in June 2001, Mahathir challenged the PAS to put down on paper its views regarding the turning of Malaysia into a full-fledged Islamic nation. Abdul Hadi Awang, wearing his Islamic dress with the
amamah and juba, laid down in this interview principles that should guide an Islamic state.
The PAS and the UMNO currently have daggers drawn at each other over the brand of Islam that political leaders feel would be best for Muslims in Malaysia. From the visit to Kuala Terengganu, and the hour spent with its Chief Minister, there is no doubt the PAS seems to have a winning formula accepted by a majority of the populace in the northern Malaysian state.
In Malaysia, the ruling coalition of Premier Mahathir Mohamad and the UMNO has targeted Abdul Hadi Awang as the man to defeat if the regime in Putra Jaya is to wrestle Kelantan and Terengganu from the PAS. The impressive Chief Minister has also been named the seventh most powerful politician in the ASEAN region. Since he has a strong grasp on Muslims in the region, his influence goes beyond politics. He is also a member of the Islamic
Ulama and sits on various international bodies handling interfaith dialogues. His supporters say they admire his honesty and sincerity when it comes to Islamic affairs.
IslamOnline: The Party Islam in Malaysia (PAS) has started an Islamization program in the state of Terengganu. What has been the response from the people so far?
Chief Minister Abdul Hadi Awang: We can say that overall, our Islamic program has received good response from the people. Malaysia is run according to the federal system. Even though we control the state, the central government still has the authority to decide on many things here. However, there are sectors where we have full powers to apply the necessary changes.
Islamization in Terengganu is limited to education and to a few other things that are of importance to the public, such as land reforms and public institutions. In the field of education we implement curriculums that are based on Islamic studies. Higher learning is also according to Islamic standards. We have authority on the Religious Affairs Department and the Yayasan Islam Terengganu (YIT), along with the mosques in the state that plays an important role in the decision on what education system we provide to the Muslims.
We also eliminated loans that are tied with interest granted to civil servants. We make loans available to them without interest for them to buy houses and vehicles. We also gave more holidays to the work force. They now have two days holiday, Friday and Saturday and ninety-day maternity leaves for ladies and one week for their husbands and these has great response from the civil servants. However on the issue of interest on low cost houses, we had to keep it on hold since the central government 'hijacked' the oil royalty that belongs to the state.
We practice Islamic principles by making land available to the people so that they can build their houses. It is part of the Islamic laws to allow people to own houses. During the National Front (NF) years, it was difficult for the people to get land and this forced them to build houses on government land, without permission. Today the people can have land for agricultural development and for housing, thanks to actions that we took. The people in general support such moves by us. We also are changing several laws such as those regarding crimes, Muslim Personal Law, freedom of information that will be implemented soon and will be based on the Islamic
Hudood.
The people are happy with these innovations, but there is a lot of pressure on us from the central government. They are against the democratic process as well as the Islamic principles we intend to implement. Based on the system of federations in Malaysia, they are trying to stop us.
The central government does not cooperate with us and attempts at preventing the officers of the central government not to work with us on several issues. They delay funds that are due to us. They are supposed to pay us a petition grant that is calculated on the number of people in the state. This is delayed. Another example is the funds for water supply, which is paid with much delay too. Such funds are expected in February and August but they only forward the payment in December. That makes it difficult for us.
They also took away the Petrol royalty, that is the five percent that is to be given to Terengganu. This state produces 60 percent of the entire petrol products in Malaysia. This brings financial difficulties for us in Terengganu. Terengganu also receives good response in the Tourism sectors from within Malaysia and abroad. However flights to Terengganu are not enough and this altogether hampers development here.
IOL: How would you define the brand of Islam between the PAS and the UMNO?
Awang: I base my thoughts on the writings of Sheikh Abu Hassan Ali Al-Nadawi, who said Islam can be practiced in two different ways. The first is practicing Islam with guidance from Allah. The second is the practice of Islam according to what benefits the person, who gives importance to material things. People who have faith in Islam will practice Islam in accordance to the concept of guidance from Allah, or
Hidayah. They will become the slaves of Allah. PAS's role is to present Islam as the right way to rule and administer. We want to present another form of governance that is different from the western secularism that is currently being practiced in Malaysia.
Under the secular state, there are certain things in which Islam is applicable and other things where it is not. The UMNO practice a secularism that has little Islamic value and leads to nowhere when it comes to Islamization. They practice Islam not as a whole, because they do not want Malaysia to be a true Islamic state.
In Malaysia, there are for example, two courts. One is the Shari'ah Court and the other is the civil court. There is Islamic education and non-Islamic education. We have Bank Islam and the conventional banks. Under these circumstances there is no scope to bring Islam to the country as a whole. With the PAS there is more of a scope for Islamization.
IOL: We heard of the Kharaj Tax. Has it been implemented?
Awang: Kharaj has not been implemented. It is a form of finance for us in Terengganu but we cannot implement it as of yet. This is a form of tax driven from land owned by non-Muslims. Muslims pay
zakat (charity) but non-Muslims are subject to the Kharaj Tax. Muslims they pay
zakat as part of their "ibadah (faith)," but for non-Muslims we cannot impose the aspect of the
Ibadah that is applied to Muslims, thus we charge the Kharaj Tax.
The implementation of the Kharaj involves the central government and the Land Office in Kuala Lumpur is completing its studies on how to allow us implement the
Kharaj in Terengganu. In a dialogue with the non-Muslims about the Kharaj, during the time the issue was in the news, they gave a good response to the idea.
IOL: UMNO accused you of having declared them "Kafirs (Infidels)."What is the truth about that?
Awang: UMNO and the secular government are playing up this issue and portraying an ugly picture of Islam and the Islamic movement in the country.
We give explanations on the boundaries of Iman (Faith) and Kufur (Infidels) to those Muslims who are affected by western secular thoughts. These Muslims goes to the extent of trashing Islamic laws and principles, and misinterpret Islam itself. This can go to the extent of affecting their
Iman and Aqidah (belief system).
We know that they do all these things due to their ignorance. They understand Islam in a secular way; they say religion and morality are not related to the matters of life.
When we show them the Islamic laws and principles in a broader way, which affects the entire way of life of the Muslims, then they give statements that are anti-Islamic. It is our duty to explain to them in a
Da'awa (propagation) manner, give them understand and we do not brand anyone as
Kufur or murtaad (apostate).
UMNO is turning the table around on this issue by provoking us and saying that we are the ones who said so and so are Kufur. They cannot bring any evidence up to date to support their accusations. We invite them to discuss the matter according to the Muzakarah (Islamic way of holding discussions) but they are not ready. We do not deny that there are some people who are extreme in the Islamic movement, they are the young generations but we manage to calm them.
IOL: The Issue of Islamization seems to be hurting the Alternative Front (AF) alliance. The Democratic Action Party (DAP) always criticizes the PAS on the Islamic issue. Do you think the PAS should slow down on its Islamic program?
Awang: No. We will not slow down our Islamic program in Terengganu. Regarding the opposition alliance, I had a dialogue with the DAP which is putting pressure on PAS to abandon the idea of the Islamic state.
The DAP also want us to relax the rules on the gambling premises in Terengganu. I represent the PAS in the dialogue with the DAP and I say there is no way for us to relinquish on this issue. The DAP and the PAS works together within the opposition alliance on issues such as the ISA. But when it comes to the Islamic state issue, we do not give way; this is part of our foundation and this is why we are different from UMNO.
If Islamization is to be an issue, then it is not true since we get good response from the non-Muslims. If the non-Muslims can accept western ideologies like Socialism and Communism and Capitalism, why can't they accept Islamic ideologies? I say that we can explain this to the non-Muslims and we can have dialogue from time to time. They bring up the issue of gambling and say this is their pastime. However they agree that all the religions are against gambling.
I am having dialogues with religious leaders and all these leaders say that gambling is not allowed. Even the Chinese business association says gambling is forbidden. The DAP stressed that this is the way of life of the non-Muslims, part of their culture. What is important is that we change the thoughts of these people. There is no compromise on these issues as much as it would be impossible to issue licenses to thieves and drug dealers!
In certain cases the Muslims cannot eat on the same table with the Chinese but they can gamble together on the same table. Are we going to make them unite over gambling tables? This cannot be done. This is not moral.
On the issue of Islamization the DAP should not be afraid since the response from the non-Muslims are positive. During the past two years, we have seen the votes of the PAS and the Alternative Front (AF) increased during by-elections. This was due to the support of the non-Muslims.
We cannot follow the pro-government media, which is against an Islamic state. I realize that those who are anti-Islam are those with western education. The Chinese community read western media and they get a picture of extremist Islam, fundamentalist and all. Most of the Chinese people who are anti-Islamic are those who follow what the western media says. Those with Chinese education and who reads Chinese history can see that from a historical point of view Muslims in China practices Islam and its culture peacefully, and there were no wars between the Al-Mawiyah, Abbasids and the Chinese kingdom. This indicates that Chinese history portrays Islam positively.
The problems stems from those with Western education, people of the like of Mahathir Mohamad himself. The ugly picture of Islam portrayed in the Western Media always influences his ideas. Even though he is against the western media, yet his thoughts are based on the principles laid out by western thinkers.
IOL: But Mahathir Mohamad is viewed by the Islamic world as an Islamic leader leading an Islamic state. What are your comments?
Awang: Those who see Mahathir as an Islamic leader are those who are of the same thoughts like him. They are influenced by secular thoughts and they are followers of Kamal Attaturk, a secularist. These people are influenced by western secularism and within their own countries they practice everything that is anti-Islam. We should realize that in the Muslim countries that practice secularism, example Turkey, the pressure against Islam is very strong.
In Algeria and Egypt for example, Islam is again under strong pressure and there is less democracy there too. Mahathir is a secular leader, not an Islamic leader. Many of his speeches show that he is not ready for an Islamic state. What Mahathir accepts as Islamic is only what could be of political gains to him. Such as, grabbing for Muslim support during elections.
IOL: Would there be an Islamic state in Malaysia. Do you think PAS could win big in 2004?
Awang: Insha' Allah, this issue should not be feared. There are two states in Malaysia that are already Islamic states, Terengganu and Kelantan. We are practicing an Islam which is fair and good, and it is valued even by the non-Muslims who are not afraid of an Islamic state.
IOL: From feedback on the streets in Kuala Terengganu, some people say the PAS does not have a blue print for development. What exactly do you intend to achieve during this mandate?
Awang: PAS has a manifesto. Which is also a program and the blue print for development in the state. This manifesto was the catalyst that brought us to power. Before the elections, we had dialogues with government officers, professionals who gave their ideas to us. We took their ideas and we produced our manifesto that reflected what the people of Terengganu wants.
We also had debates and dialogues with the public and they too told us what they wanted us to do for the state. That is how we won the elections. We took the concerns of the people into consideration. Included in the development program, were the main issues on how to get rid of the toll at the bridge at Kuala Terengganu. We threw out the toll on the very first day we took power.
We also got rid of the assessment on residential areas; implemented new land programs that are within the powers of the local government. The land program altogether was tackled and this with immediate effect. In these developments in Terengganu, UMNO or the Central Government does not have any say whatsoever.
IOL: What has happened to the Highway project that was heavily publicized in the international press right after you took office in Terengganu?
Awang: The central government again played a drama with the Highway project that should link the state of Pahang to Terengganu. During the Elections they said they would build this highway. After we won, they said the highway would be build until the state of Pahang only. After this I said we would build our own highway. The Ministry of works then said they would finally build it. However there is no activity that shows they are serious with the project. I again made statements that we were ready to build the highway.
The Minister of Works, Sammy Velloo, came to see me in Terengganu to discuss the project. I told him the cost of the displacement of the people from their lands and that the building of the highway should be born by the Central Government. He responded that he will take all our proposals to the Cabinet but until today there has been no response from the Cabinet.
We are privatizing the project and we have discussed with 3 private companies over the highway. We have already chosen one of the companies that will build this highway.
The central government said it would cost around US1.6 billion but we estimate the cost of a larger highway and extended to the state of Kelantan up north at US650 million. We propose a three-way highway, not a two-way highway. On top of that we propose that the highway is built within government land, which is under developed and is found on the outskirt of the residential areas. This means we do not have to displace people.
IOL: Are there any alternative source of income for Terengganu since the oil royalty has been "Hijacked" by the central government?
Awang: We see that Mahathir has made two bad choices. The hijacking of the oil funds is not good, and Mahathir feels that to allow the state government to have the oil royalty is dangerous. He feels this is dangerous for the Central Government. Mahathir believes that in the eyes of the public, the hijacking of the royalty has low implications rather than give the royalty to the state of Terengganu. If we were given the royalty we would become a model of development that would undermine the central government.
Before that, during the UMNO rule, the royalty was given to Terengganu. For more than 20 years the royalty amounting to RM7billion (US1.00 = RM3.80) was granted to the state. The population of Terengganu is one million, and with this money they could have done some good for the people. However the people of Terengganu is the second poorest in the entire Malaysian peninsula.
The state has a debt of RM700 million, debt left by the outgoing government. When PAS took over in 1999, we returned what belonged to the people in the forms of the cancellation of the tolls and residential assessments as well increase in the welfare of the people, increase in the Imam and Bilal's salaries and so on. It is doubtful that during the next general elections, the National Front (NF) would triumph in Terengganu after what they have done in this state.
IOL: Is there any possibility of foreign investments in Terengganu? Does the Federal government block such investments too?
Awang: Foreign investment is coming but the problem is the Central Government. Such investment has to go through the Ministry of Trade and the National Bank (Bank Negara). Any investments must go through the central government.
Those companies and agencies that are already in Kuala Lumpur can bring investment to Terengganu, we can bring them to invest here and we know many of them are interested to do so.
Recently there has been an investment of RM200 million in the state in small industries coming from agencies that are based in Malaysia. We invite these investors to come to Terengganu since nowadays there are no bribes and other payments to be made to the local government as were done before.
IOL: Women are an issue where the UMNO and other parties heavily criticize the PAS. They say the PAS disregards women and bullies them?
Awang: What UMNO is saying is not true. Since 1959 we have had a woman parliamentarian, when Khatijah Sidek, the party's Muslimat (women's wing) leader, won an election.
During the 1660's and 1970's there were women candidates but after 1980 we decided that there should not be any more women candidates. The reason is that elections in Malaysia are immoral. We do not want women to be involved in such immoral things that the NF does during elections.
After that we decided that women should be made senators of the state parliament, members of the municipal councils and participate in party debates and discussions.
We give them chances to be leaders within the party and they represent a big force for the PAS during elections. We realize that in Kelantan and Terengganu more than half the voters are women and we win in these states.
What they say about PAS being discriminating towards women is not true. What one sees in Terengganu in terms of dress code such as the scarf being used by female government workers, were not imposed on them. They decided themselves to use the scarves. This is being done through motivation, not with laws and enforcement of any laws in the state.
In dialogues with the DAP, they talked to me regarding the rules that governs those ladies who does not cover their
aurat (parts of body that have to be covered). There are no laws forcing people to cover their
aurat and there are no actions taken against those who do not cover their aurat.
What happened here is that the women themselves started to use the scarves, for example: due to understanding of Islamic principles. Even UMNO supporters are wearing the scarves, which was not the case before. This is due to the
Da'awa of the PAS and other Islamic groups for example.
IOL: The issue of terrorism has surfaced recently in Malaysia with few members of the opposition being held for alleged subversion. What is your opinion on that? Is Islam an extreme religion?
Awang: Islam is not extreme. It is a well-balanced religion. The prophets did the propagation of Islam in a soft manner. Islam does not exercise force except when it is forced to defend itself.
Terrorism is not something that happens in Malaysia only; it is a social problem that is obvious all over the world. Even among Muslims there are socials ills such as gambling and alcoholism, but they are in a very small amount. These are not the teachings of Islam, but are part of the social illnesses affecting the world. Whatever it is, only a small number of Muslims are involved in such activities. We see the attack on the bank in Kuala Lumpur by the so-called terrorists. It involved only 6 people.
Terrorism and so on come mainly from non-Muslims. In politics, we see the changes that occurred in Saudi Arabia during King Abdul Aziz's time, and in Iran during the time of Ayatollah Khomeini how many people died? These compared to the Bolshevik revolution, how many millions of lives were lost. How many people died in Vietnam during the Vietcong war. In China, during the time of Mao Tse Tung, in America itself during the secessionist war, how many people died. My point is that in the Muslim world, such revolutions or changes do not endanger the lives of that many people as in other countries. Overall, the non-Muslim world shows it is more extreme than Islam, which is a peaceful religion. Historical facts and records show that.
IOL: Your opponents say you are a "radical" leader. How true is that?
Awang: I am doing my duties according to what I am allowed to do. It is up to them to judge me. There are two aspects to this question. The positive aspect is that the challenge makes me do my work better and I try to bring the people towards Islam.
Others have negative objectives in their mind and they want to bring Mahathir to act faster against me and also against those who are doing Islamic work in this country.
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