Drs.
Wilkins and Loveless were interviewed via Instant Messenger on
March 31, 2005.They collaborated in their answers throughout.
IOL:
I’d like to focus on how these UN issues affect the average
person. Why should the average person care about what his/her
government or the United Nations does regarding family issues?
Can you give some concrete examples of how policies or laws
(pro- or anti-family) affect individuals and families?
Drs.
Wilkins and Loveless: The
average person must care about what his or her government says
and does regarding family at the UN because international law,
formulated by UN processes, now has significant impact on the
policies implemented by intergovernmental organizations—and
by national governments.
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A.
Scott Loveless, JD, PhD |
Richard
has written a very short description of how and why
international law “matters.” We will send you a copy of
the essay—“How International Law Controls Domestic
Law”—with all the footnotes.
We
have two documents we can send you that answer the questions
“why international law matters” and “what concrete
actions the UN has taken that raise questions about the
family.” The first is a short essay, “How International
Law Controls Domestic Law,” and another on “Deconstruction
and Hope,” which examines how the UN has “deconstructed”
or taken apart the family.
IOL:
I’m looking forward to receiving those. In the meantime,
let’s look at CEDAW [Convention on the Elimination of All
Forms of Discrimination Against Woman], for instance. It is
being used to push for legalized abortions in many countries.
The US has not ratified CEDAW (or the CRC [Convention on the
Rights of the Child]), but how have they affected countries
that have ratified them?
Drs.
Wilkins and Loveless: To begin
with, many of the goals of CEDAW are admirable. CEDAW seeks to
improve women’s political participation in society,
education, and access to health care. These are laudable
goals. However, in the pursuit of these goals, the CEDAW
Committee sometimes takes extreme positions, refusing, for
example, to recognize that there are or may be differences in
the needs and roles of women.
The
Committee, accordingly, calls motherhood a “harmful
traditional stereotype,” and urges nations to take “all
necessary action” to “eradicate” this “stereotype.”
Now, there are many things that can and should be done to
improve the status of women in modern society. But it hardly
furthers the legitimate needs of women to assert that
motherhood is a “harmful” stereotype.
Moreover,
in the quest for “equality” the CEDAW Committee often
attempts to make women “equal” to men in ways beyond the
merely political and social. Women should have equal access to
education; women and men are “equal” in this regard. But,
the biological fact that men do not bear children does not
suggest that abortion is a “fundamental right” simply
because that is the only way to make the woman’s role in
childbearing “equal” to that of the man’s. In these, and
in other areas related to family life, national laws—and
international policy—should recognize that “strict
equality” may actually harm women (and the children they
bear).
To
take one example from US law that is now being used
internationally, women are no longer entitled to automatic
alimony payments upon divorce. Why? Because “women are equal
to men and, therefore, a woman can work to support herself
after divorce.” But, because women often have closer and
more burdensome relations with their children, this rule has
resulted in the impoverishment of divorced American women and
their children. Today, 30 years after women achieved
“equality in divorce,” divorced American women and their
children are in worse condition—and poorer—than at any
time in our nation’s history. The CEDAW Committee’s
consistent emphasis on “strict equality” for women can
actually harm women. Women, in many respects, are NOT “just
like men.” The law should be able to recognize this reality
and act to protect and advance the interests of women, and
children.
Finally,
we would like to emphasize that CEDAW may have a significant
impact on all countries, whether or not a country has
ratified the treaty. The US Supreme Court, two weeks ago,
cited a UN treaty that the United States has NOT ratified as
“controlling” in an important case. If American law is now
governed by treaties that America did not ratify, we
assure you that all nations around the world are similarly
vulnerable.
IOL:
Some of your above comments about women deserving equal rights
but not being necessarily equal to men in everything are so
similar to Islamic teachings. When did you first realize that
the Muslim world held many of the same values as the ones the
WFPC is promoting?
Drs.
Wilkins and Loveless: I
(Richard Wilkins) first realized the similarity when I
attended the Habitat II Conference in Istanbul in May and June
of 1996. There, I saw Western feminist scholars advocating
positions that not only contravened my religious beliefs, but
that flew in the face of the common experience of mankind and
current sociological insight. I found that very few Western
scholars attending the conference held the same beliefs. But
as I discussed the important issues addressed by the Habitat
II assembly with various national delegations and NGO
representatives from around the world, I found that my beliefs
and understandings were rather precisely mirrored by those who
followed the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (and, I hope I
am not inappropriate, I add peace be upon him).
From
that point on, and to this very day, I have worked to increase
understanding between the Christian and Muslim worlds. There
is a vast amount of misunderstanding between the two cultures
and religions, but a vast amount of (generally unrecognized)
agreement on fundamental values—particularly those related
to marriage, motherhood, fatherhood, childbearing, and family.
I believe that there is a profound need for Christian and
Muslim scholars, Christian and Muslim NGOs, and Christian and
Muslim citizens to work together to promote a healthy,
sustainable family culture for our nations and the entire
world. As we work together on this important effort, we can
develop a true “culture of peace”—a goal that is a
stated goal of the United Nations and the goal of Christianity
and Islam.
In
today’s world (and certainly all too often in the
headlines), it looks like Christianity and Islam are “at
odds.” I firmly believe this is not the case. True
Christians and true Muslims can and will live together in
perfect peace. The hope of the World Family Policy Center is
that, by working together to improve the world’s families,
true progress toward sustainable, peaceful societies will be
achieved. True Christianity and true Islam are not enemies;
rather, our opponents are those who would deny the fundamental
natures of men and women and advance an ideology of the
“self” and self-gratification.
IOL:
At the recent Beijing +10 conference, the United States
attempted to amend the Conference declaration to say that the
Beijing Platform did not call for legalizing abortion. Yet
many countries—including Islamic ones—did not support the
proposal. How do you interpret that? Will there still be
cooperation between the right-wing in the US and Muslim
countries?
Drs.
Wilkins and Loveless: First of
all, we would like to state that it is not the “right
wing” of US society that is working with Muslim countries.
The broad “middle” of America is opposed to abortion on
demand, and is opposed to changing the definition of marriage,
and certainly opposed to the idea that motherhood is a
“harmful traditional stereotype.” So, there is a far
broader segment of American society that will work with Muslim
nations than just the “right wing.”
Second,
there is widespread misunderstanding of what happened at the
Beijing +10 Conference. The United States proposed inserting
into the final declaration an express statement that the
Beijing Platform did not create a right to abortion. In a very
real sense, this was unnecessary because the Beijing Platform
itself states that it does not create any new human
rights—and many nations made express reservations to the
Platform stating their views that the Platform did not address
the question of abortion. Therefore, many nations at Beijing
+10 did not support the US proposal on the simple ground that
it was not needed; in their view, the Beijing Platform did not
create a right to abortion and there was accordingly no need
for further discussion of that topic.
We
believe that this was the view taken by many countries,
including most Muslim countries. As a result, this action does
not suggest that Muslim countries will not work together with
the United States and other nations on questions related to
fundamental family values.
Finally,
the Doha International Conference for the Family, which was
one of the culminating events of the UN’s celebration of the
2004 International Year of the Family, was a remarkable
example of cooperation between Western countries (including
the United States) and the Muslim world. The Doha Declaration,
which was noted by the General Assembly on December 6, 2004,
reaffirms important fundamental understandings related to the
family and family life. This document was sponsored by over
140 nations on December 6. This important, broad-based
reaffirmation of fundamental family values suggests that there
is indeed good reason to believe that the United States and
Muslim countries can and will work together in the future to
support and protect shared values.
IOL:
What do you see as the biggest achievement of the Doha
Conference? Did it achieve all its goals or did it fall short
in some areas?
Drs.
Wilkins and Loveless: The most
important achievement of the Doha Conference is the Doha
Declaration, and the extensive world-wide scholarship
supporting the declaration. The Doha Declaration reaffirms
basic, fundamental understandings related to the family and
family life (as contained in the Universal Declaration of
Human Rights and other foundational UN documents) that have not
been given any attention or examination for over three
decades. The Doha Declaration puts the idea of the family as
“the natural and fundamental group unit of society”
(Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Art. 16(3)) “back on
the negotiating table.” It does so, moreover, as a result of
a year-long series of meetings attended by hundreds of
government representatives, hundreds of scholars, and
thousands of members of civil society.
We
are now editing two major volumes of scholarship, entitled The
Family in the Third Millennium. These volumes,
encompassing more than 1,200 pages of significant scholarship
from academicians and leaders from every region of the globe,
support and amplify the normative statements of the Doha
Declaration. The Doha Declaration and its supporting
scholarship demonstrate that there is a world-wide shared
commitment to the natural family. The year-long, interlocking
processes of the Doha Conference demonstrated that diverse
nations, cultures, and religions understand the importance of
the natural family and are eager to work together to promote
and protect it.
The
Doha International Conference for the Family was not
“perfect,” but no human effort is ever perfect. But the
Doha Conference began a much-needed collaboration by nations
around the world who are committed to promoting and protecting
the natural family. The world community owes a profound debt
of gratitude to Her Highness Sheikha Mouzah bint Nasser Al-Misnad,
Consort of His Highness the Emir of Qatar, and President of
the Supreme Council for Family Affairs of the State of Qatar,
for her foresight and energy in establishing the processes of
the Doha Conference and in supporting it to its conclusion.
Her Highness, at the concluding session of the conference in
Qatar on November 30, 2004, announced that she would establish
an international center to study the “natural and
fundamental group unit of society” (Universal Declaration)
and promote policies to strengthen and support it.
Accordingly, it may well be that the most “significant
achievement” of the Doha International Conference for the
Family is yet to be seen. The international center announced
by Her Highness could have a profound—and much-needed—role
in strengthening the family and, by so doing, promoting a
culture of peace. This, I believe, may well be the lasting
legacy of Doha.
IOL:
For me, the most interesting or promising outcome of Doha is
the promised establishment the international institute for the
study of family issues. What role will WFPC have in the
institute’s establishment? What efforts are being made to
bring in research from developing countries? (I hope lots!)
Drs.
Wilkins and Loveless: The
World Family Policy Center is eager to support and assist the
efforts of Her Highness in establishing the international
institute for the study of the family. The role of the center,
if any, will be determined by Her Highness. Both of us,
however, would be delighted to assist in any way we can. We do
not know, at this time, what efforts will be made to sponsor
and promote research in developing countries. The mission of
the Doha institute would include these efforts, and we believe
that Her Highness will make every possible effort to insure
the success of the institute (including the completion of
research in developing countries).
IOL:
Where do family issues go from here? Much of Europe and Canada
has already legalized homosexuality, and legalizing gay
marriage is still debated in the United States. If it is not
possible to turn things around, where do we go? There is also
the Sexual Orientation Resolution on the agenda at the UNHCHR
now being held in Geneva.
Drs.
Wilkins and Loveless: We
believe that the international family effort is just
beginning. There has, indeed, been a lot of movement away from
the family as “the natural and fundamental group unit of
society.” However, this has occurred precisely because there
were few (if any) contrary voices or opinions being expressed.
In the past seven years, we have seen significant achievements
to promote the values of life and family in the international
arena. The Doha Conference, to take but the most recent
example, demonstrates a world-wide commitment to the natural
family. Therefore, we must simply keep on working. It is
possible to “turn things around.” The best sociological
evidence available supports the natural family. History and
experience suggest that normalizing and promoting homosexual
conduct has serious negative consequences. And, to this very
moment in time, too few “ordinary people” understand what
is “at stake” in this important international debate. As
more ordinary citizens get involved, as more research is
conducted, as more nations hear the actual views of their
citizens, we can “turn this around.” Seven years
ago, I would have never believed that more than 140
nations would support a statement like the Doha Declaration.
But it happened. Why? Because one courageous nation, Qatar,
took a stand and the world rallied around. This is all that is
needed now: a little courage, work by scholars, dedication of
NGOs, and the support and prayers of ordinary people. There
are groups from diverse religious and cultures now attending
the UNHCHR meeting in Geneva. These groups will do their best
to insure that the Human Rights Commission does not adopt
troublesome norms. We have a lot of hope. When the people
speak, nations—and the world—will listen.
IOL:
Thanks so much, both of you for your time. Do you have any
last comments you’d like to make?
Drs.
Wilkins and Loveless: Thank
you so very much for this opportunity. We are grateful for the
work of so many of our Muslim brothers and sisters to promote
and protect the natural family. Dr. Loveless and I hope to
have the opportunity to work with—and meet—many of you in
the coming years.
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